QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

Villain runs at 18/13/4 over a large sample.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP ($50.90)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($112.20)</font>
Button ($17.30)
SB ($116.05)
BB ($114.30)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($50.75)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $4.25.

Flop: ($12.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero....

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

call and see what happens on turn. I'd have bet flop

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

ugly spot. You beat not much here except AK maybe AQs and some PPs like 88, 99. soo folding is maybe a little too weak, maybe call and hope for help on the turn? then C/F if no help comes?

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

I dont like calling here but you guys might be right. I think calling lets his AK draw/get away cheap.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

So you think about raising? I hate raising here because u commit yourself and are likely to be beat.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

I hate spots like these but I think you have to bet the flop. As played, folding seems so weak but against such a TAG I would fold, your equity against his range is not very good at all.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

C/f here is terrible imo. Donking seems bad also in that I dont get a c-bet from the hands I beat but I get raised by those that beat me. The mantra seems to be that with QQ we try to get it in on any non A/K flop when involved in a 3 bet pot. How is this different if its different at all? If you think it is then why?

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like calling here but you guys might be right. I think calling lets his AK draw/get away cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but raising has no value because he never calls with AK. Not only that, but if he shoves his AK or draw and you fold you've made an even bigger mistake.

C/f is best. Calling gives villain 2 free cards. If you call and turn is a blank are you betting? If you check he will check behind and then get to see a river card too. If no A/K hits he probably won't call any bet on the river. Basically, you don't stand to win anymore money but you can certainly lose more.

I usually end up calling flop and c/f turn. Just a tough spot to play.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

This may be an exaggeration but if I am going to c/f this flop then maybe I should just fold pf. If I cant be happy getting my money in with QQ on a board with no A or K then Im essentially set mining.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
This may be an exaggeration but if I am going to c/f this flop then maybe I should just fold pf. If I cant be happy getting my money in with QQ on a board with no A or K then Im essentially set mining.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that this board contains a J and T. An 18/13 probably isn't 3 betting your UTG raise light. I think TT+, AQ, AK is reasonable. The few hands you were ahead of pf you are now behind. If you knew the flop would be T/J/x then, yes, you could fold pf. But you don't know that. Nothing wrong with c/f a bad flop.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

I only put in 3 combos of KQo seeing how he is fairly tight. I guess if you think my range is off then any comments are appreciated. I think KQ gives me action on this board seeing as how he has an oesd. I am slightly behind here but the dead money in the pot should compensate for this. Plus I gave him a pretty tight rr range. If I put something random in there assuming he likes to do this out of no where with a suited connector or gap because its his favorite hand, then the ranges get alot closer.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

47,520 games 0.053 secs 896,603 games/sec

Board: 5d Jh Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.629% 45.23% 01.40% 21492 666.00 { QcQh }
Hand 1: 53.371% 51.97% 01.40% 24696 666.00 { KK+, QdQs, QhQs, JcJd, JcJs, JdJs, JhJs, TcTd, TcTh, TdTh, AKs, AdQd, AsQs, KdQd, KsQs, AKo, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AhQs, AsQd, AsQh, KcQs, KdQs, KhQs }


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Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

well a lot of your combos you give him with a queen in it you have so that may skew your results. The problem with raising here is that he will only call/push with hands that beat you and I think if he whiffed he will not be pushing the issue on the turn if you call the flop. If ths guy is fairly regular to you, you should probably 4bet this preflop to $16 and see how he reacts.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

If I 4 bet QQ pf I am calling a shove. I 4 bet small sometimes with hands as a bluff which I can then let go but I wont turn QQ into a bluff. I put some queens in his range because I think its fair to assume he 3 bets AQ alot and KQ sometimes. That is why I discounted the number of KQ combos.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

villain will be afraid of the J and 10 on flop also so I think ou can bet and safely fold to raise

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

you raise UTG and 4bet him.. if he doesn't have AA/KK he will not play back trust me. AK will fold here rather than push more often than you think as will most any hand that can outdraw you on the flop.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

Youre probably correct but the problem is if he plays back with AK and/or JJ then I have to call as I put in 1/3 of my stack and now have odds.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Board: 5d Jh Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.629% 45.23% 01.40% 21492 666.00 { QcQh }
Hand 1: 53.371% 51.97% 01.40% 24696 666.00 { KK+, QdQs, QhQs, JcJd, JcJs, JdJs, JhJs, TcTd, TcTh, TdTh, AKs, AdQd, AsQs, KdQd, KsQs, AKo, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AhQs, AsQd, AsQh, KcQs, KdQs, KhQs }


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[/ QUOTE ]


You have to take out the Qc and Qh since you have those cards. I think you should discount many hands like AQ/KQ since you have two of the Qs in your hand anyway. Maybe cut the number of those hands in half and add one random hand, then run it again.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

well you didnt call pf to set mine did you?

some lines to take v. tighter tags is to c/c flop and c/f the turn. its unlikely that villan (tags) will double barrel in rr-ed pots at this level and i expect him to check behind with AK/AQ a tremendous amount.

if he's more aggro, v. easy c/shove on the flop (ie. if stuff like AJ/QK are in his rr-ing range).

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

No I definitely didnt call to set mine thats why I think c/f is weak like I said. Thats a good point about him being aggro but his AF definitely isnt low. Im guessing youre referring to pfr.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

raise that [censored] up?

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

He didn't call to set mine, but we should recognize that this is a bad flop considering his stats. Should we just blindly c/c no matter what the flop?

I think considering stats and flop texture c/f here isn't bad. Like I said, you will be giving villain 2 free cards and getting no more value on average.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Youre probably correct but the problem is if he plays back with AK and/or JJ then I have to call as I put in 1/3 of my stack and now have odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

then your decision would be much easier than it is in this spot

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

As a rule I hate 4 betting with QQ pf at these levels.

Re: QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot
 

I def like calling preflop. Also folding the flop is out of the question. I prefer call and re-ev, leaning towards folding the turn without any better reads.