50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

Okay, title says it all...I suck at deep stack play.

Okay, maybe its not that deep, but i always feel lost in spots like this vs a seemingly capabale opponant

Villian is 20 / 13 / 3.3 over 90 hands

What is your play here and reasoning behind it

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $55.75
Hero (UTG): $107.30
MP: $30
CO: $86.10
BTN: $36.40
SB: $51.55

MP posts $0.50
Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2.50</font>, MP folds, CO calls $2.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($6.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.25</font>, CO calls $4.25

Turn: ($14.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero ???????

I should probably add i bet like 11 in position and then re eval whether i bet the river or not (villian dependent)

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

Bet/fold 10ish something.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

dry board
deep
tag opponet

go for pot control

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

yeah bet 8 to 10 $. If he calls, repeat on safe river ( about 20-25$).
If he raises your bet on the turn.... probably fold.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

I would fire the turn around 10-11. If you get resistance you should probably release. If he cold calls, try to check it down on the river, and probably fold to a big bet.

I dont see him raising anything that you are beating. I think most hands you are beating will try to show down for free.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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I should probably add i bet like 11 in position and then re eval whether i bet the river or not (villian dependent)

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Then why don't you bet the turn oop? You obv should be more inclined to go for pot control ip.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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yeah bet 8 to 10 $. If he calls, repeat on safe river ( about 20-25$).
If he raises your bet on the turn.... probably fold.

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What do you actually think a capable player looks you up with here?

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

No idea how too play this but it seems you have him on a monster so check fold?

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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yeah bet 8 to 10 $. If he calls, repeat on safe river ( about 20-25$).
If he raises your bet on the turn.... probably fold.

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What do you actually think a capable player looks you up with here?

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On the turn, Qx/T9/KT. Sometimes Jx. On the river mainly KQ, sometimes some worse Qs (QT/Q9). More important, what better hands would a decent player not raise?

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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No idea how too play this but it seems you have him on a monster so check fold?

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Please leave all your posts for BBV

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

umm...good question. I dunno.
His calll on the flop doesnt tell us anything. He could have anything AJ KQ KT...so I bet the turn. we could check the river but I like to keep the initiative. Lets say u bet the turn and river is a blank. u check and villain bets. 20$. what u do?

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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umm...good question. I dunno.
His calll on the flop doesnt tell us anything. He could have anything AJ KQ KT...so I bet the turn. we could check the river but I like to keep the initiative. Lets say u bet the turn and river is a blank. u check and villain bets. 20$. what u do?

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You call call call.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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umm...good question. I dunno.
His calll on the flop doesnt tell us anything. He could have anything AJ KQ KT...so I bet the turn. we could check the river but I like to keep the initiative. Lets say u bet the turn and river is a blank. u check and villain bets. 20$. what u do?

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Fold, there are no real draws out there (bar T9 and KT), he's taking me to town so much more often than he's bluffing

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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umm...good question. I dunno.
His calll on the flop doesnt tell us anything. He could have anything AJ KQ KT...so I bet the turn. we could check the river but I like to keep the initiative. Lets say u bet the turn and river is a blank. u check and villain bets. 20$. what u do?

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You call call call.

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He never vbets worse right? And there are only 2 hands that'll call 2 streets there. Maybe with a missed FD you could c/c river

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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umm...good question. I dunno.
His calll on the flop doesnt tell us anything. He could have anything AJ KQ KT...so I bet the turn. we could check the river but I like to keep the initiative. Lets say u bet the turn and river is a blank. u check and villain bets. 20$. what u do?

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You call call call.

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He never vbets worse right? And there are only 2 hands that'll call 2 streets there. Maybe with a missed FD you could c/c river

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I think he's v-betting KQ often, because you should v-bet any hands better than KQ. Betting $20 would be good with KQ. He could v-bet worse Qs, but usually not I guess. Sometimes he has KT/T9. Rarely he has QJ/set.

Still I'm usually betting the river myself and let him figure out what he's willing to call with, given that the board is relatively dry.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

Do you really think he would v-bet KQ? We have shown aggression. He can't think his hand is really good. I would checkbehind with KQ...

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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Do you really think he would v-bet KQ? We have shown aggression. He can't think his hand is really good. I would checkbehind with KQ...

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I would v-bet KQ, can't see a reason to believe I'm behind.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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dry board
deep
tag opponet

go for pot control

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can we cc two streets? or do we cc turn cf river? I think a big part of checking here is that we hope he checks back

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

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I would v-bet KQ, can't see a reason to believe I'm behind.

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as villain, I wouldn't v-bet the river with KQ after being two barreled. I would be happy to see the check on the river and would instacheckbehind. Is that too weak?

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

I think turn check is best here although @ 1st I didn't like it (my default would be bet turn 10 c/c river). Checking gets another street of value when our line from preflop to turn is bet bet bet which means vilian may fold more of his range than usual given the hammer of future bets. he'll likely check and bet stuff we beat for 1 street. If checked through obv betting river almost always.

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Do you really think he would v-bet KQ? We have shown aggression. He can't think his hand is really good. I would checkbehind with KQ...

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IMO Checking behind (as villian) makes our hand transparent to a decent hand reader - think what OP would do to counter this and it makes sense.

If I was vilian I would bet/fold KQ here on turn- puts Hero in a tricky spot and abuses posn IMO - but obv this can be 'countered' by Hero's turn c/call and then the river gets interesting.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

with my post I was referring to the river. If he checks behind on the river it doesn't matter anymore if his hand is transparent. for the turn you are right.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

Sorry my fault misread your post [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I was grunching then edited my post to include your quote after reading the replies.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

I'm thinking bet/fold turn and check/call river.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

I think your action depends on:
1) your cbetting tendencies. if you cbet a lot, your flop bet doesn't mean much so he may look you up with all sorts of hands
2) how often do you 2nd barrel with air
3) how often does villain float

if you cbet a lot, rarely 2nd barrel and villain is capable of floating, I think b/f is the way to go. On the river I think c/c is the way to go.

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

c/c turn c/c river.

To a semi capable villain this looks like we whiffed the flop so we are more likely to get monies from a worse hand.

If we bet/fold turn i) we can get bluffed off this hand ii) we fold more hands we are ahead of that we can milk a little.

Quite a a bit hangs on your dbl barrel frequency as to whether villain will seea turn bet as a bluff (and thus raise you) or as a value bet and act appropriately.

We gots good SD value and even if we call pot pot turn and river we aren't losing THAT much when behind (considering our equity vs his total range) - obv if we improve then a river c/r is sexy time I think.

It's likely that if villain is bluffing then he'll bet the turn as a float and check through the river.

The downside is we give villain infinite drawing odds, our reverse implied odds are quite high and we get no protection but draws miss more often than they hit and we have a few outs ourself.

betfold c/c gives us a little protection vs draws and might net a little more if villain flopped TPworse kicker.

BUT if villain is capable (the jurys out on most 50NL villains) he is raising a turn bet here almost always. A turn raise from Villain is VERY strong because we then have to think about the river bet and how big it might be and how committed we want to be to our one pair hand. (See "the hammer of future betting" in NLTAP) If villain makes a chunky raise he is basically saying "I have position and if you want to take this to the felt then you got to call this bet AND put the rest of your stack in on the river" thats basically about the strongest move you can pull playing NL poker. c/c c/c removes that possibility and gets our hand with SD value to SD cheap so that hopefully we can drag a nice pot.

Deep stacked - position is like 1000000000x more important - (and it's pretty dam important already)

Re: 50nl, I need exp with deep stack play
 

Against a TAG opponent everyone is always saying to 'check for pot control', because they won't call with worse. I think we are giving our opponents too much credit. We should just keep betting for value. If they know you are a competent player they should realize that you can bet with a lot of hands too. They will make their hero calls.

Plus, betting the turn gives your 2nd barrels more credit. Mostly, the only time you are firing 2 barrels is when you are bluffing or have a monster. Do it with marginal hands too. This makes you much tougher to play against and frustrates your opponents, if they have to constantly fold, which means they will look you up lighter.

Bet turn and bet river too!