PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $47.75
SB: $31.10
Hero (BB): $58.80
UTG: $26.45
MP: $143.95
CO: $117.65

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="red">MP raises to $2.50</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $2.50, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $4.50, BTN folds

Flop: ($17.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $9</font>, MP calls $9

Turn: ($35.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">MP bets $20</font>, Hero ?

The villian in this hand was 20/13/1.2 through 30 something hands. He was 100% (4/4) on calling cbets though so I am not sure how to play the turn. Do you lead out on this turn then fold to raise? If he calls turn bet, how do you play river? As played what would you do on the turn?

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

what is with flop 1/2 pot? that cant be right. I don't know. i f u had full pot flop, I wouldn't be so concerned about this ace but as played i think he could have like a2 or 45 or something. usually folding turn here it think.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

That turn makes me vomit a little. It's a great card to bluff with, but that ace hits a huge part of his floating range. I think this is one of the spots where it's okay to be bluffed and just check/fold.

In the absence of an ace, though, I like a turn CRAI; it's so much fun to do that to habitual floaters.

Edit: I think that flop bet sizing is fine as it's a 3-bet pot and you don't need to build a pot to get stacks in by the river. The flop's bone-dry and you don't want to discourage him from floating when the only card you don't like is an ace.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

I hate hate hate stat reads on something like 30 hands. They're useless.

Given that you're completely readless, I'd probably bet the turn and be committed to calling a shove. A c/f on the turn is just too weak against an unknown.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

bet more on the flop

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

[ QUOTE ]
That turn makes me vomit a little. It's a great card to bluff with, but that ace hits a huge part of his floating range.

[/ QUOTE ]
The "bluff" part I agree with, but what are you talking about wrt "float?" He's floating with A4? A couple clubs?

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

ur bettin/raising sizes are too small. Raise pf to like 10ish and bet like 2/3ish on flop. As played id probably bet like $12ish. I think if you bet larger on the flop you can def rule out AK/AQ hands and those are probably the only Ax hands in villian's range that improve on the turn. I think if you bet the turn ur def makin worse hands fold but i think ur still ahead most of the time. So Id either c/c or c/r

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

[ QUOTE ]
That turn makes me vomit a little. It's a great card to bluff with, but that ace hits a huge part of his floating range. I think this is one of the spots where it's okay to be bluffed and just check/fold.

In the absence of an ace, though, I like a turn CRAI; it's so much fun to do that to habitual floaters.

Edit: I think that flop bet sizing is fine as it's a 3-bet pot and you don't need to build a pot to get stacks in by the river. The flop's bone-dry and you don't want to discourage him from floating when the only card you don't like is an ace.

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what no way... i don't play that kind of poker sorry, I don't give easy outs to str8 draws 2 pair draws whatever. the idea that somehow it's safe to string him along with 1/2 pot with an overpair is ridiculous imo.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

wow please don't rely on the HUD that much...4/4 is so small it does not justify stacking off light. He could have just been hit by the deck or whatnot. Maybe they were donkey min bets he was calling you dont know.

Even if he is floating a lot there is a big difference between calling a 6BB cbet with over cards and maybe a draw, and floating a 18BB cbet in a 3bet pot when you know your most likely up vs a big hand.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

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The "bluff" part I agree with, but what are you talking about wrt "float?" He's floating with A4? A couple clubs?

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Um, yeah. Isn't that the definition of float?

Anyways, I disagree with everyone saying that 30-hand reads are worthless. They should definitely be taken with a grain of salt, but knowing that your opponent hasn't folded on the flop in over 5 orbits is definitely relevant information.

Potting flop is terrible. Unless it's your standard play (and if it is, dear God that's miserable) it looks sorely out of place. The board is very, very dry: There ARE no straight/two pair/etc. possibilities that you need to protect against, and the only card that hurts you (the ace) is painfully obvious; slightly larger than half pot is fine for getting stacks in by the river. Preflop could be bigger, though.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

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I think if you bet larger on the flop you can def rule out AK/AQ hands and those are probably the only Ax hands in villian's range that improve on the turn.

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That's not how floating works. A floater is someone who ISN'T folding Ax/pockets/etc to a c-bet with the intention of using position to take the pot away on the turn or river. If I'm going to float you, a larger flop bet isn't typically going to stop me.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

a little over half pot on this flop is plenty big enough - tho if you know he calls every flop he's seen and we gots an OP I full pot this basically you wanna bet as much as he'll call - if you think he calls a shove all the time then shoving is the correct play.

lead turn fold to a raise.

as played I tend to call the turn and re-eval the river - fold to a serious river bet &amp; check behind if checked to. It's very villain dependant tho and if I've not seen villain float me then I usually fold the turn if I somehow get myself into this spot.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

Turn is a blank. Not just any blank, but a blank that some retards would bluff on.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

just seeing the turn in the post made me vomit in my mouth. we dont have much FE here as a push wouldn't be enough to push him of a weak ace so it obviously comes down to his range. i think there are better spots than this as villian shows up AxFACEx a lot, especially after weakish flop bet. i would think about putting you on a PP &lt;10 after seeing your flop bet which would make a float a good play. you think villian would do it with something like KJ? i think an ace is very very likely here

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a blank. Not just any blank, but a blank that some retards would bluff on.

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What makes you say that? Stuff like AJ makes up a very large part of his floating range. Sure, if we felt that he was playing tight then the only possible hand that he could have improved is AT, but that's not the case here.

Unless I'm missing something, that ace is the complete opposite of a blank.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

If he is stupid enough to float with AJ, he is stupid enough to float with KQ or 22.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

Completely agree. How does that change how the ace improves his range a ton?

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

If he indeed floats really light, A is a perfect card in his eyes to bluff on if you show weakness.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a blank. Not just any blank, but a blank that some retards would bluff on.

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I would totally agree if the flop bet was 11$.

I can see him calling that flop if he has AQ or AJ now.

I would bet the flop 11$, and c/rai the turn. As played I am not sure tbh. Would probably call/call.

Also I believe the flop bet is a tournament bet.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

Yes, but it's okay to be bluffed off sometimes; if he's even a marginally competent floater he's betting this with or without the ace. An ace is almost half of his PF raising range, which is pretty much the same as his range now. I doubt it's profitable to continue playing the hand when villain knows exactly where he is and you have no idea OoP but I'd be happy to be proven otherwise.

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

If you read right and he float alot,hes range probably 10s+,J/10+,A/J+,so against this range you have 43% equity.
AS played you have only 2 options call and you will have +12.3bb ev on it or fold.
CRAI is out of the line,cause u will have -9.1bb ev on it

Re: PS 50NL KK bad turn against floater
 

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That's not how floating works. A floater is someone who ISN'T folding Ax/pockets/etc to a c-bet with the intention of using position to take the pot away on the turn or river. If I'm going to float you, a larger flop bet isn't typically going to stop me.

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ur jokin right?? I know what a floater is. And after only 30 hands its pretty tough to judge if someone is really floatin a lot. And ur sayin if hero doesnt have larger bettin sizes both pf and flop that doesnt change the chance of being floated w/ Ax?? That is crazy.
For instance say you bet pot on the flop compared to minbet...ur sayin your gettin called just as often in both cases??? (this is probably a bad example but maybe you get my point) Plus this is a 3bet pot where we have shown nothin but strength!! I dont know who u play w/ but from my experiences typical uNL villians dont float w/ air (Ax) in 3bet pots(esp if bet sizes were larger). And u say it urself villian is floatin Ax/pockets/etc which sounds like it almost makes the A a blank against this range.