Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I think i am playing well, but i am getting STOMPED. I must be doing something wrong, but i really have no idea what it is.

Over the last 14000 hands i have the following stats:

VPIP 15.05%, Vol from SB 25.11%, Folded SB to steal 62.40%, Att. to steal blinds: 30.29%, Won $ WSF: 37.06%

Went to SD: 32.08%, Won $ at SD 51.72%, PF raise 8.97%,
Flop AF: 3.47, Turn AF 2.57, River AF 1.35, Total AF 2.64

This may be a little skewed because over the last 4k hands i'm down $500, and i'm negative with AK, AKs, AQ, AJs, ATs, QK, QKs, QQ, TT etc so that doesn't help.

But i feel over 14k hands i should be positive. Is there anything glaring about this stat line that indicates a major leak somewhere?

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
VPIP 15.05%, Vol from SB 25.11%

[/ QUOTE ]

Too tight

[ QUOTE ]
Flop AF: 3.47

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not enough calling, but could also be too much bet-folding.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I almost NEVER bet/fold the flop. Usually i will just call and fold the turn even if i think i'm beat. But I thought I shouldn't be just calling very much on the flop. If i have TP etc, shouldn't i be raising or folding? What's the point of calling with something like mid pair so i'll have no idea where i am and will probably be bet at again on the turn?

15% VPIP is too tight?

This is my VPIP per position

7: 9.81%, 6: 8.73%, 5:9.03%, 4:10.73%, 3:10.95%, 2:13.86%, 1:16.99%, Button:21.24%

Are u suggesting i should open limp small pp's or Ax in early position? I used to limp KJs and KTs until i realized that KJs and KTs were costing me more money than any other hand. I think open limping those are really weak plays.

I also was raising AJ and ATs utg. Then i realized those were my next 2 biggest losing hands.

If i'm open limping a7s, and i get raised, do i just check fold a high flops? What about 44? Do i check fold low flops, or do i play a crap pair out of position where AK will lose as little as possible and QQ will make as much as possible?

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

yay a stat post that has >10K hands, I'll reply to this one.

What limits u play? 15% VPIP seems a little tight. Also I'm wondering if maybe ur cbetting tenancies could be increasing ur flop AGF.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

Stars 1/2 as it says in the title.

Yeah, i basically c bet every time i raise. Maybe i shouldn't be doing that, but what do i do with overcards if i'm not c-betting? Should i be check/folding or what?

I know it's annoying to put stat things up, but I was doing the "i'm getting such crappy luck" thing, and then i realized I should shut up, and if i'm losing it means i suck. If it's really annoying, i'll just delete the post.

I know my VPIP is tight, but what if anything should i be open limping? Most of my games are 3-4 ppl/flop and there is a fair amount of raising, so i really do not want to be OOP with weak/dominated hands.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I know it's annoying to put stat things up, but I was doing the "i'm getting such crappy luck" thing, and then i realized I should shut up, and if i'm losing it means i suck. If it's really annoying, i'll just delete the post.


[/ QUOTE ]
nah u didn't get what I meant, it's a good thing that u posted ur stats after 10K hands, most new posters wait till they hit a downswing after 2K or even 1K.

As for ur cbet with OC's question it's too difficult to give a specific answer, due to the nature of poker. The best way to find out is to make a "do i cbet to often" post & show a few spots where u were uncomfortable/unsure, even a quiz would work.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

Cool thanks! Can i just ask about my VPIP. I don't know if you saw but i posted my VPIP for every position? Do you think i should play more hands across the board than that?

I just do not like open limping very much because i'll get isolated a lot of the time and QJs or 55 plays well multiway, but not very well against 1 raiser, or 1 raiser + caller.

Any advice on where i should loosen up? Also, what do you think about 30% steal pos raise.

Right now i'm raising basically 55 or better, any A, K decent q, or 2 cards above 78 or 98 on button, and something like 66+, a6 or k8+, q7s+, j8s+ etc in CO depending on who the blinds are. My CO stats are lower than my button or hijack stats, so i'm wondering if i'm too loose from the CO.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point of calling with something like mid pair so i'll have no idea where i am and will probably be bet at again on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this can be part of your problem. With mid pair you have 5 outs to beat TP. Often you can add some back door draws to a flush or straight. Maybe you miscalculate your odds and fold when you actually have the odds to continue?

You also said that you basically cbet every time. Even TAGs are allowed to call once in a while when it's +EV to do so.

BTW, I assume your stats are for FR and not 6-max.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

No i mean assuming i have mid pair with a decent kicker, I raise this instead of just calling. For instance, if there is a flush draw or something, and i just call with mid pair, someone with the draw will often continue to bet, and then i will have no idea where i am. I would rather raise the flop, bet the turn, and check behind the river than call down FTR.

I know i should call sometimes, but i thought it is usually better to be raising than calling on the flop. I am just wondering.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

try to find games where u can play m/way hands in EP/MP. Tho don't know what the current state of 1/2 FR games r like. As for ur VPIP positions I think u could open up a bit more in LP, OTB seems ok but u could open/steal from HJ & CO a bit more which would increase both ur stealing & VPIP stats.

FWIW here's my FR stats but take in mind these are mainly from Sep 05 -> Dec 06 the games were pretty juicy back in teh early 06 days esp @ Paradise.



http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3280/gibfrxf0.jpg

As for positions:
OTB = 26
CO = 24
HJ = 20

These stats of mine r prolly a little laggy but it would help ur game if u played a few more hands from HJ on.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

Thanks a lot! There's like max 15 tables of 1/2, but depending on when i play there aren't a ton where i can play a lot of hands in e/mid pos.

I miss paradise too. I used to play NL where u could open push for 100 bb with AA, or check raise 100 bb with any set and expected to get called at least 50% of the time.

Also i think my AF may be skewed because my PT is not showing PF AF. Is there something i need to do to turn this on? I'm assuming that is messing up my stats.

Also any chance u can give me your early pos %'s? If not it's cool.

Btw i really appreciate the help!

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I'm out for the night unfortunately [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Thanks for the help. If you have any other advice, pls post it! L8r!

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are u suggesting i should open limp small pp's or Ax in early position? I used to limp KJs and KTs until i realized that KJs and KTs were costing me more money than any other hand. I think open limping those are really weak plays.

I also was raising AJ and ATs utg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it's not the preflop that is costing you money. It could be postflop play with these hands that are costing you money. and KJs is a money maker.

Anyway, I reckon that while it might be ok for your sample size to look at the overall stats, but it might not be too accurate to judge for individual hands, as the sample for each hand would be too little. I was making a deficit with KKs when I had about 5000+ hands.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stars 1/2 as it says in the title.

Yeah, i basically c bet every time i raise. Maybe i shouldn't be doing that, but what do i do with overcards if i'm not c-betting? Should i be check/folding or what?



[/ QUOTE ]

no!! as the preflop aggressor you want to bet around 67% or higher on the flop whether or not you hit. check the stats for yourself on pokertracker of how much money you are making when you 1.)voluntary put money in 2.) preflop raise or reraise and 3.) your action on the flop was a bet.
there's alot of money in c-betting.

you seem a little tight preflop. the only stat that sticks out to me is your attempt to steal blinds. i think 40 percent is optimal in this spot. im currently at around 45% attempt to steal percentage and its a nice chunk of my profits.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I'm surprised that the attempt to steal blinds percentage is so low if you steal with the hands that you described earlier in the post. I would expect it to be nearer forty percent.
What is your win/loss ratio like when you steal with marginal hands? Is it not the case that stealing with weak hands at low stakes is less profitable because - a. you are more likely to get called and b. the rake is proportionately higher than at higher stakes.
I think that you might be calling too many raises from the small blind.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

1. VPIP should be a bit higher
2. VPIP from SB could be a tad higher, too
3. Folded SB to steal looks a bit low to me. Defend less in SB.
4. Wowee, flop AF is high. Sometimes it's correct to call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I know this isn't the greatest place to ask, but how do i sort stats to find only the hands i raised pf etc? I tried but i can't seem to figure it out. Oh well.

Also my big problem is so many pots are raised that yes, KJs is a money maker, but lets say i limp/call a raise, if the flop is K high i will probably either win 1 small bet or lose several big bets, which is terrible.

I still don't know how to get around that. I will keep workign on it though. Thanks!

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

J, have u got pokertracker?

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I also have problem with finding about 2% VPIP after 20k hands. I think Im to tigh becouse my is VPIP 16.14.
I dont think I lose my VPIP at stealing/iso/re-stealing situation becouse I iso lipers with wide range and re-steal agrressive players with decend hands. I have attend to steal about 38% so I miss my VPIP not at those situation.

I dont open limp at EP with hands like 22-77, A2-A7 and limp EP JTs, QTs, KTs only with quite loose not so aggressive table (open raise at MP1 with them).

Overall I dont know how can I increace my VPIP at about 2% [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Possibly I overlimp to less at late possition with marginal hands like J9o, K6s, T8s, 76s after one loose passive player lipm (possibly dont use enought my late possition at PF)?

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

Based on your responses I would say your stats aren't the problem although as others have stated, they are way too tight.

It doesn't appear to me that you understand why you are playing and why the others at the table are playing.

"After 14k hands I should be positive." Why should that be the case? If you don't understand why you play certain hands and why others play their hands then you need to do a lot more reading and playing those cards you are afraid of.

It feels to me that you are playing the wrong level.


My suggestion is move down to .25/.50 or .5/.10 and start playing poker and stop asking for donations. Play 30% of your hands (which is easily winnable at these levels) and begin to understand why people play.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I understand why to play and what hands to play. I play 5/10 and 10/20 limit and i played probably several hundred thousand hands at 5/10 for like 6 months a few years ago and then i quit for like a year and a half. So i understand how to play.

I just said I should be positive because I am looking at the hands i am playing and the people who are at my tables and a lot of them are playing total crap, and playing that crap very badly.

So I thought I would ask people to look at my stat line to see if I am making big overall mistakes, and they did, and told me i'm playing too tight. So i'm trying to figure out where I need to get more hands and which hands i need to add.

Would u rather me just post about taking bad beats, and then complain about stupid players? I'm not asking for donations, and thanks for being such a jerk and not helping me out. I appreciate it.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

When I said donations I was referring to donations from the players you were up against not from the posters in question who answered you. I answered your post when you posted hands without being a jerk and I don't think I was being a jerk here but so be it.

Clearly you have a thin skin, I have taken a lot more heat than I dished to you here as many can attest to. Your thin skin seems to be prevalent in your defensive stance.

That is the attitude that is going to kill you, not the cards. We all have bad crap happening to us but with every post I see a huge leak in your attitude and that is what I am addressing.

If you think you can win because you should win, because the others are really bad and you think adding hands are going to change all that, I think you need a wake up call.

Being results oriented is just bad thinking. I don't care how many hands you have played, in fact I would suggest it is probably a bad thing for you because you have ingrained so many results into your thinking process that it is extremely difficult for you to adjust your game in an appropriate way.

The game of tight is right is really long gone in this poker online world of today. If you don't understand motivation, betting patterns, and the tendancies of yourself let alone your opponents, you can add as many hands as you like and it won't make much difference.

1/2 by the way is the worst level to play at imo. If I suggest anything to anyone is that one should skip 1/2 if at all possible.

In your case I suggested moving down because you are going to see even more bad players, you are going to have even more bad beats and you will need to start developing reading skills, metagame games skills that seem to be lacking in your limited input on these boards.

If you think I am a being a jerk then by all means ignore what I am saying, it affects me not. I am trying to help you here.

You can be defensive or you can look at why I am saying what I am and see if there is a grain of truth in it.

Your choice.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[quote





1/2 by the way is the worst level to play at imo. If I suggest anything to anyone is that one should skip 1/2 if at all possible

[/ QUOTE ]

why should a player moving up through the levels skip $1/2? what is so bad about this level? just wondering cause a recently moved from .50/1.00

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why should a player moving up through the levels skip $1/2? what is so bad about this level? just wondering cause a recently moved from .50/1.00

[/ QUOTE ]
The lowest limit you can play live is 2/4 and a lot of those ABSOLUTE FISH (ever played live 2/4? they are BAD!) play the same limit online.
Hence the good players have the same qualities at 1/2 as they do 2/4, but 2/4 holds more fish and is generally better...

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

plus the rake is less costly.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

Smurph, I appreciate the time you took writing your responses. Still your posts basically boil down to you think my attitude/game/hand reading sucks, and i should drop down to micro-microstakes because i'm not a good player.

I admit, I'm not a very good player. But I was running 3.3 bb/100 over my last 30k hands at .5/1 before i moved up, so i was surprised to still be down over 14k hands at 1/2. I really didn't know if i was just going through a downswing or if there was something in my stats that was fundamentally wrong.

I asked an honest question about my stats to try to improve my game which is what i thought this forum was for. Every other poster gave me useful feedback and concrete advice on what they thought is wrong and what i should be doing, and I'm already working on making those changes.

Since your first post you basically told my game sucks and i should drop down to .05/.1 where i belong and forget about trying to improve, because I suck so much it won't even help. That's your opinion, which is fine. What you think of me is none of my business, and i don't really care. I'd rather ask and have people trash my attitude/game etc. and hopefully get some helpful advice than just play, lose and complain.

If the thread annoyed people I apologize. I wasn't really sure how else i could get the feedback i needed. I have been working really hard at my poker game and it's disappointing to still lose.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. I'm going to try to make the changes you suggested (except dropping down to .5/.1 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also my big problem is so many pots are raised that yes, KJs is a money maker, but lets say i limp/call a raise, if the flop is K high i will probably either win 1 small bet or lose several big bets, which is terrible.

I still don't know how to get around that. I will keep workign on it though. Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

Treat it like the marginal drawing hand it is. Steal with it, or limp with it. Flop monsters or good draws with it, and with just one pair throw it in the muck when you run up against real resistance.

As others have pointed out, your stats are very tight and very aggressive. So try mixing in some passive play. KJ is a good hand for that.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

I think you have a great attitude, and it would be in your best interest to ignore advice in this tone. You're actively seeking help and have provided your personal stats for people to look at. Anyone who is disecting your "attitude" based on the fact that you've posted your stats and the fact you defended yourself and your game is providing marginal help.

The fact is, downswings and break-even stretches happen. No matter how good you are and how perfect you play, you're going to get beat by the cards for a while at some point. 14K hands is really not 'that' many. There are a lot of players who play that many in a week. Keep playing and keep your head up.

My recommendation, for what it's worth, is to play .50-1 6-max. If you have any leaks, playing 6-max will make them easier to find and easier to fix. You'll master c-bets, blind play, blind stealing, etc. at double the pace.

Anyways, good luck.

Edit: By the way, 16-10-2.5 is fine. Just be willing to slow down here and there rather go hog-wild when you're behind.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

Thanks a lot gutte! Really encouraging post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I played some 6 max nl and it was really an interesting experience, so i think that's a really good idea to mix in some 6max limit to improve some stuff.

Anyway thanks a lot for the advice there. I'm actually not down TOO much, but like i said I know that if i'm not winning long term, it's not because of luck, it's because of leaks. Hopefully i'll get em fixed!

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

All I can say is good for you for looking down instead of up or out to fix your game. Glad you can take the advice of someone who says the same thing but compliments you at the same time.

I will reiterate that stat fixing is a thing of the past. If you fix stats in an attempt to improve your game rather than fixing your game and letting the stats go where they may you will be totally exploitable by anyone who watches stats.

The single level metagame philosophy expounded in the books from the past is no longer feasible in my opinion.

It is no longer possible to play the bonus and rakeback levels of .50/1.00 and 1/2 as well as can be expected if you do not alter your play for your opponents.

You probably can still get away with preflop strategies and survive but if you don't improve your postflop play exponentially while doing so then there is no way you will stand a chance at 6 max.

6 max by the way requires you to play around 25 to 30 percent of your hands and raise preflop with 20 to 28% if you want to beat it and the blinds and the rake consistently. Essentially without rakeback the blinds cost you two positions so speaking bluntly you need to show profit from UTG and Hijack.

If you have played at the stats you have shown to date, its a huge learning curve to play 6 max.

I played fr at 30/15/2.5 for 150k hands and showed a 2bb/100 profit despite paying 5bb/100 to the rake up to 3/6.

It was only after I took time off for a few months and studied and practiced with Poker Academy for a very long time that I made the leap to 6 max. I spent countless hours watching btspider, Mr. Wookiee, and Dr. Matt (str8fish) before I started playing 6 max well. Now in fact you can watch videos from some 6 max guys on their coaching sites and its unbelievably helpful.

At 1/2 6 max I am running into difficulties and as many have told me its a really strange level. I am 3bb/100 below it and above it, but down .5/bb with 1/2 after 10k hands there. (Still profitable with rakeback and bonus but if I had more in the roll I would skip it. As it is now I pick games above or below it as much as at 1/2 to build my roll up)

So all I am suggesting if you do play 6 max drop down even lower than .5/1.00.

It has been the advice of many to me and its been extremely appreciated.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played fr at 30/15/2.5 for 150k hands and showed a 2bb/100 profit despite paying 5bb/100 to the rake up to 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what site was this? I didn't anybody charged that high a rake at full ring.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

The rake effect is affected by the number of hands you play therefore someone who plays more hands will have to overcome a larger burden than those who play less. That is why the concept of preflop tightness is correct.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

Okay. Like I said, I was just curious. I'm sort of the opposite of you in the sense that I play more like 15/10 at full ring, but I'm a big believer in the idea that there's a fairly wide range of preflop stats that generate more or less the same winrate. I should add a few more hands, but I would tear my hair out if I played your stats -- just personal preference.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Are my stats terrible?
 

[ QUOTE ]

My recommendation, for what it's worth, is to play .50-1 6-max. If you have any leaks, playing 6-max will make them easier to find and easier to fix. You'll master c-bets, blind play, blind stealing, etc. at double the pace.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if moving to 6-max is going to help your full ring game...
6-max is a lot different from fullring. If you're this tight at fullring you're going to have to loosen up A LOT to play 6-max. You're going to have to adjust your game a lot to a playstyle that won't work as well at full ring. You also will have MUCH higher variance so you need a larger bankroll to account for that and a lot of discipline to prevent tilt!