Quick quiz
 

Equity quiz.

You have AA vs average player. Flop is 9d 8c 4c.

A) what is a typical range that villain will check/call a bet with ?
B) what is your equity against that range? (No pokerstove!)
C) Now you have A9 on the same flop. What is your equity ?
D) Since we couldn't use pokerstove for this quiz, list at least 2 factors that you used to conclude on an equity number.

edit: Ranges for A) are not the most important part of this quiz. Assume if you want that you opened in 2nd position and he called in the BB

Re: Quick quiz
 

A) I don't get by calling range? What will Villain call a bet with? (I'd get it against any hand).
B)If Villain pushes? probably around 62% Do we have the club?
C)It's probably lower because he can play it the same way with TJ.
D) A few factors I used. Draw heavy board. Whether we have the Club to the nut flush. The possibility that Villain has overs in the A9 hand.

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A few clarifying questions:
Which ace do i have?
A)What do you mean by typical calling range? What a typical player calls with? And what is a typical player?
Assuming 100bb stacks? Preflop action?

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Edited for clarity. I meant what range check/calls the flop on that board assuming a normal (weakish passive) SSNL player.

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Which ace do i have?

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Doesn't matter for the question. Estimating the equity of all AA combos is not much harder than for a single AA combo

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More info? Stacks? Bets preflop? Villain tight or loose?

At the end of the day, you compare likely hands vs what beats you vs what you beat.

If you end up with lots of hands you beat that match, you have high equity, if you match lots of hands you loose to you have low equity. About the only way to do it on the table.

Not enough information to give a fair range of 'likely' hands to go through that process though.

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eh...how did we get to the flop again?

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A) Depends on stacks to pot ratio, and previous action but say

99,88,44
TJc, 67c,56c,AKc,
89s
QQ+

Does that work ? Now let me think about the next questions.

Re: Quick quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]


A) Depends on stacks to pot ratio, and previous action but say

99,88,44
TJc, 67c,56c,AKc,
89s
QQ+

Does that work ? Now let me think about the ne

xt questions.

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Yeah, that's a good start. BTW, the range you chose is a bit too tight for an unknown IMO.

Re: Quick quiz
 

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A) Depends on stacks to pot ratio, and previous action but say

99,88,44
TJc, 67c,56c,AKc,
89s
QQ+

Does that work ? Now let me think about the ne

xt questions.

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Yeah, that's a good start. BTW, the range you chose is a bit too tight for an unknown IMO.

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yes, its way too tight and our equity is great since any better hands raise that flop, same goes with a9 except for the times when he plays TT passively pre-flop and post-flop.

Re: Quick quiz
 

he's calling with mid-high flush draws, some mid pairs, a few straight draws maybe a top pair here or there and even an overpair once or twice. our equity has to be about 75% cause a good chunk of his range is drawing to 2 or fewer outs.

With A9 I guess we're closer to flipping cause lots of the flush draws and half of the straight draws also have two overs.

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A) J9o, T9o, T8o, 87o, 77, 66, 55, 33, 22, Axcc, KTcc+, QTcc+, SC clubs, JTo, 76o, A9o.

Plus all the monsters, TT+, sets and 2prs. But, I'd discount them some because he'll re-raise TT+ quite a bit pre and will raise the flop with monster a lot of the time as well.

Because of this, I'd think A9 would have similar equity.

Also, because I feel people peel so light on these type boards, I double barrel them a lot with or without a made hand.

Re: Quick quiz
 

A) A9, A8, 9T, TJ, TT, JJ, 44, 88, 99, many Ax and connecting club possibilities. I think with QQ, KK or the other AA the typical player will typically have reraised preflop or led out or check-raised on flop with 2 clubs on board. With 89 I'd also usually expect either a bet or check-raise on flop. Sets are probably strong enough for a simple check-call even with 2 clubs on board.

B) Against entire range I'm probably 60% favorite. This is a calculation I would never normally make because I'm getting to see the turn card which will obviously alter the figure.

C) With A9, I'm probably about 50/50.

D) With AA, I am ahead of almost everything in my range except a set. I am 90% against TT, JJ, A9 or A8. I'm 80% against 9T and 75% against TJ(not clubs). I'm 65% against flush draws with no pairs or straight draws. Flush draws with other possibilities(pair or straight draw) seem like the most likely holding since there are so many variations possible. A few of these would be favored against me and the rest I'd be only a very slight favorite against. I'd say 50% of the hands I'm against are these, so 50/50 there. I'd say another 45% are the hands I mentioned above where on average, I'm about 75/25. The other 5% of the time I'm up against a set and am a 9-1 dog. 0.5(0.5)+0.45(0.75)+0.05(0.1) = 0.25+0.3375+0.005 = 59%. I did use a calculator for this, but my initial impulse was 60%. I'm not going to break it down for A9 but I'm now also a dog against TT and JJ, I'm even money with A9 and not as big a favorite against any flush draw with overcards to the 9 or to TJ. I'm also now drawing almost dead to a set but this doesn't factor in much since I was drawing slim anyway. I'd estimate my total chances of winning with A9 around 50%.

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Sorry for hijack, whats the deal with all these "LP" avatars?

Re: Quick quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
A) what is a typical range that villain will check/call a bet with ?

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QJ, JT, J9, T9, T8, 98, 87, 76, 99-44, A9, A8, Axcc, KQcc, QTcc, KJcc, KTcc, 56cc, Kxcc (obviously, some of these are raising some % of the time)

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B) what is your equity against that range? (No pokerstove!)

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Id guess around 73% when he just calls

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C) Now you have A9 on the same flop. What is your equity ?

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hmmm, hes less likely to have a 9x hand now, and now many of his unpaired draw hands have an overcard or 2, I also have less equity against the hands he has that are beating me. Id say it prolly drops to like 65%, but it also means I wont get as much value on the turn since im more likely to play pot control on lots of cards.

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Since we couldn't use pokerstove for this quiz, list at least 2 factors that you used to conclude on an equity number.

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estimation of the most likely hands he has via estimating hand combos, and the outs those hands have vs me, and multiplied by 4 for his approximate equity, then just took the complement. Adjusted up or down slightly based on how I thought he would play the hands that beat me, or the hands that had more outs than what the mean hands had.

edit: I just stoved it, I pretty much nailed it with AA for my estimation <font color="white">(got 71%) </font> , but the A9o plummeted my equity much more than I thought it would, it fell to <font color="white">58% </font>.

Re: Quick quiz
 

ok let me add a few more hands then

A)
99,88,44,89s : 12 hands- 10% equity
56c,AKc,QJc,TJc,67c : 5 hands- 50%
TJs, 67s (suit&lt;&gt;club): 6 hands - 65%
JJ+, A9s: 21 hands (ignoring AA) - 90%

B) total equity:
My answer: 60% equity, see below for "details"

I think this is equivalent to

29 hands with 50% equity, 6 hands with 65, 9 hands with 90%

or

29 hands with 50%, 15 hands with 80% (should be 30-15 if we add the other AA)

or

2 hands 50%, 1 hand 80%

My final answer: 60% equity


C) With A9, you have 18 more hands in the 10% group. I think the final answer would be around 35%, but I'm doing this quickly (I'd say 2/3 of hands we have globally a 50% equity, 1/3 about 10%)

D) number of hands in a given group of hands, equity against that group



Now let's see if my answers are ridiculous. BTW it took me a while to compute this, I wouldn't do that at the table.

Edit: results in white vs a
JJ+,99-88,44,AcKc,A9s,QcJc,JTs,98s,76s,6c5c range

<font color="white"> AA: 61%, A9: 28% (A9s=34%, A9o=26%)
not too bad I guess </font>

Re: Quick quiz
 

A)
TJs, 67s,
56cc, AXcc, QJcc, KJcc, KQcc, KTcc, QTcc
TT, 9Xs, A8s, 77, 66, 55,

B) umm rough estimate? i suck at this... maybe ~67% vs the range i gave? im obv expcting the avg player to raise sets and 2 pair on flop









edit - this was like a 90sec post so my range could be off... and obv my equity estimate could be way off

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ok I just realized the question was check-call, when I thought it was "go all in with" (i.e. if we bet/3bet etc). So my range sucks a bit.

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im assuming ave tag

77-55,T9s,98s,87s
80%
80%

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60 and 68

Re: Quick quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
Equity quiz.

You have AA vs average player. Flop is 9d 8c 4c.

A) what is a typical range that villain will check/call a bet with ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any pair, any piece.
PPs: 22/33/55-77/
Sooted: AcXc (assuming we don't have Ac)KcXc
Connectors: QJ/QT/JT/J9/T9/T8/97/87/86
Other: AK obviously lol.

[ QUOTE ]
B) what is your equity against that range? (No pokerstove!)

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Hmm. Against that whole range? I'd guess 62-ish.

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C) Now you have A9 on the same flop. What is your equity ?

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Interesting. We have the best hand against the whole range I put up there, hmm.. maybe 56?

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D) Since we couldn't use pokerstove for this quiz, list at least 2 factors that you used to conclude on an equity number.

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We obviously haven't got lots of outs with AA, we can counterfeit turned 2 pair hands which we can't with A9. With A9 any turncard connected to the flop will probably alter our equity pretty much.

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edit: Ranges for A) are not the most important part of this quiz. Assume if you want that you opened in 2nd position and he called in the BB

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This was fun, I should practice this a lot more (I may be way off). Gonna go stoving now. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Quick quiz
 

Wow I'm surprised about the results. I was about right about the relative strength between AA and A9 but the equity was a bit off.

Re: Quick quiz
 

The question of a typical player's range does depend on the game: whether it is online/live, what casino/site, what time of day, previous action at table, etc.

I guess my range was a bit more narrow than DevinLake's. Part A is fairly subjective depending on what typical is. With the range he gave, I would guess AA is about 70% and A9 about 65%. He's right: there are more hands that A9 is dominating and so the equities in the two hands would be closer than they were in my range.

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Just to note, I excluded all 2 pair hands and sets assuming he'd donk or checkraise them.

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A.) Mid pairs, occasional straight draw etc.
B. 70%ish
c. 60%ish
d. intuition based on previous uses of poker stove. also, there are three levels; the hands in his range that you crush, the hands in his range that crush you, and the hands that you are flipping with. estimate how many are in each, act accordingly.

Re: Quick quiz
 

i would think that A9 should be significantly lower than AA with a range that beyond monsters includes med-high suited hands, connectors, and single pairs. even though we were drawing slim against monsters w/ AA, we're much worse off w/ A9(from ~9% to 1%). also, w/A9 we lose equity to the overpairs that we had ~90% against w/AA. against high/broadway unpaired flush and straight draws AA is again better off b/c of overcards to our pair when holding A9.

edit: maybe not significantly lower but i don't think they are that close; no stove on this computer though.

Re: Quick quiz
 

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i would think that A9 should be significantly lower than AA with a range that beyond monsters includes med-high suited hands, connectors, and single pairs.

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A9 and AA have very different equities if you include overpairs. If you remove them, then I think it gets pretty close.

Re: Quick quiz
 

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i would think that A9 should be significantly lower than AA with a range that beyond monsters includes med-high suited hands, connectors, and single pairs.

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A9 and AA have very different equities if you include overpairs. If you remove them, then I think it gets pretty close.

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i agree. it makes sense to discount the overpairs. i hadn't really done any hard calcs; was just comparing the estimated equity against each group w/n the range (AA v A9) and i had all combos of TT-QQ in there which gives 18 combos that AA dominate but that A9 is dominated by. like you said that's gives AA a serious boost here. how about all TT combos and one combo of JJ? obv it fits the pf play better.

edit: maybe even just a couple combos of TT,

Re: Quick quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
Equity quiz.

You have AA vs average player. Flop is 9d 8c 4c.

A) what is a typical range that villain will check/call a bet with ?
B) what is your equity against that range? (No pokerstove!)
C) Now you have A9 on the same flop. What is your equity ?
D) Since we couldn't use pokerstove for this quiz, list at least 2 factors that you used to conclude on an equity number.

edit: Ranges for A) are not the most important part of this quiz. Assume if you want that you opened in 2nd position and he called in the BB

[/ QUOTE ]

havent read the other responses but here i go........

I am assuming that a 'typical' opponent is someone thats 25-30 vpip and 10-12 pfr.

1. He will call with any fd, straight draws including possible gs (qj, qt maybe) along with any pair+draw combo and any 9/8 regardless of kicker + all over pairs. He may also peel with AK/AQ espcially if he has a club in his hand. I am sure he would lead with some of these hands but i am not sure which part so i will assume he c/c with most of the range above.

2. I would say that my equity is somewhere btw 60-66% range?? no stoving but i would be pretty dissapointed if this % was far diffrent in reality.

3. With A9, all overpairs but not much changes for the rest of his range so i would say somewhere in 56-60% range??/

4. I assumed that against all hands where he has a fd/sd i was well ahead unless he has a straight fd or something in which case he is in good shape. I am crushing TT-KK but i dint think that was a big part of his range so i didnt factor that in too much. I assumed that a good part of his range was hands where he had a pair+ some sort of draw and in that case he was in decent shape.

ooops didnt see last part of post... TT-KK is not at all likely because he likely would have 3b pf...

Re: Quick quiz
 

A)
TT,99,88,77,66,55,44
9X,8X,98,94,84
XcYc
67,7T,JT,JQ

Range changes based on what he'd call PF with but w.e this seems fine to me.

B) 68%
C) 73%
D) - A9 having more outs to improve than AA
- A9 limiting the no. of combinations of 2pairs or sets villain could have

Re: Quick quiz
 

Alright, I'll give my 'answers' now.

A)I should have been a bit more clear in the OP about this. But assuming that we open in OTB, and he calls in the BB.

case 1: He doesn't slowplay two pair or TT-KK on the flop
(normal play here).

So I'd put him on 77-55, A9, T9, K9s-J9s (prob folds the offsuit versions), T8s, 97s, 76s, JT, QJ, Axs (down to A7s or A2s doesn't matter much in terms of effecting equity), and the broadway club hands (KQcc etc).

Given that, using pokerstove you get

AA ~ 74% equity
A9 ~66% equity

That's actually a pretty big difference. Reasons are that AA has more equity against two pair (not that important since its hard to get two pair or better!), and more importantly AA kills 'overcard outs' against the flush or straight draw hands. .

case 2: Now assume that villain plays tricky and can c/c the stronger hands of 98/sets/TT-KK. Then we get

AA equity ~ 70%
A9 equity ~ 52%

Now a huge difference. So even though we can now sometimes be against 'strong' hands, AA is still pretty damn good. Eliminate TT-KK from villains range but keep two pair/sets, and AA goes down to 65%, which still beats 58% for A9.

I guess we can take a few things out of this thread. Even though at first glance AA looks the same as A9, it is significantly stronger. AA is less vulnerable, and hence you bet purely for value. Where as with the A9 its for value and also protection (you don't mind if a hand with decent equity folds since they will often make up some of the deficit with implied odds). Now if the question was what do if check/raised on that board, then again equity would help us to a decision. AA dominates his c/r range (if he c/r clubs and str8 draws as well as 9x from time to time), and so we love getting it all-in on the flop before either scare cards hit or they suck out. But suppose we get c/r holding A9 there. Then getting AI is still not that bad, but calling and stacking off on blank turns (any non club 8-2, and J/T probably) would be a better play to punish his draws and also get away on bad cards that are likely to help him.