An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

Joshua Menleon, 28, could tell the high school students he was assigned to teach thought he was almost as young as they were.

"They'd ask me questions about my musical tastes and movies and stuff like that, or if I play video games," said Menleon, who is training to be a communications technology teacher and just finished his first practicum at a high school in east Toronto last week.

But when it comes to establishing any sort of relationship with students beyond the bounds of school, Menleon said the rules he learned in his first semester at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto are clear: Don't do it.

Full Article:


http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/278462

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

I agree that this is actually interesting. I was talking to a friend recently (we are both just out of college) about the state of education in this country, and one of the things I thought was a bad turn was that teachers were supposed to remain entirely "objective".

It's clear from this attitude that the main priority of schools is to produce grades or some similar "objective" ranking of students. Even if we assume that having teachers getting to know their students better is somehow going to make them less objective (and this is reasonable, although one would hope that teachers would be capable of doing their job better), it seems that we are quite happy to sacrafice results in the domain of actual learning just to eliminate the possibility of any bias. Grades first, learning later.

It seems to be that a far better system would be to have teachers stay with a class for several years (say 1st-6th grade, 7th-9th, 10th-12th, or something similar). Teachers SHOULD know their class, they SHOULD know their students, they SHOULD be seen as mentors to whom their students can turn for help. With all the complaints that students are bored, that the material is seen as dry and distant, why wouldn't we want teachers who know their students well and are capable of making the material seem relevent and know how to teach it in the most effective way for their particular class?

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
they SHOULD be seen as mentors to whom their students can turn for help

[/ QUOTE ]

teachers should not be mentors to children. Far too many of them are not wise and rather destructive.

children should be taught to think for themselves and understand essence instead of authority-style mentoring, rote tasks, poorly correlated grading systems, etc.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to be that a far better system would be to have teachers stay with a class for several years (say 1st-6th grade, 7th-9th, 10th-12th, or something similar).

[/ QUOTE ]

The Russian system does (or at least used to do) this. It's great for some number of students, but God help you if the teacher dislikes you for whatever reason. Additionally, what tends to happen is that two classes in the same school wind up with widely different amounts of knowledge (or even slants on) the same material over time. Bad idea, IMO.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

adan,

I thought the same thing. The system I had in mind (this came over a few sessions of hitting the fine hobbit leaf so details are a bit hazy) involved large "main classes" that would be supervised by multiple teachers, and then being split into much smaller classes for maybe 1/2 or 2/3 of the day. These smaller classes would deal with much more specific subjects, students would be given problems to work on/think about, and much of the work would be done in groups in these "main classes" under general supervision.

In theory this would allow for smaller classes, more specialized instruction, but not necessarily a much larger demand for teachers (just better teachers).

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
they SHOULD be seen as mentors to whom their students can turn for help

[/ QUOTE ]

teachers should not be mentors to children. Far too many of them are not wise and rather destructive.

children should be taught to think for themselves and understand essence instead of authority-style mentoring, rote tasks, poorly correlated grading systems, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

And who would teach them this if the teachers are unwise and destructive? As is all too common, your post is self-defeating.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
adan,

I thought the same thing. The system I had in mind (this came over a few sessions of hitting the fine hobbit leaf so details are a bit hazy) involved large "main classes" that would be supervised by multiple teachers, and then being split into much smaller classes for maybe 1/2 or 2/3 of the day. These smaller classes would deal with much more specific subjects, students would be given problems to work on/think about, and much of the work would be done in groups in these "main classes" under general supervision.

In theory this would allow for smaller classes, more specialized instruction, but not necessarily a much larger demand for teachers (just better teachers).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good idea, and I've never heard anything like it before. You could even have one teacher all of one year, early in the schooling. Say 2nd-6th grade you rotate through each of the 5 teachers for a full year. Starting at 7th, it's more like you describe above. From somewhere 2nd to 6th grade, a kid is going to like one of their teacher. That would be the one that they would naturally talk to when they're having issues. And because there's more to "chose" from, the destructive teachers have less of an effect.

Very interesting.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

Tom,

Yeah, under any variation on the system I would want to have kids be able to give some feedback on teachers, if one teacher is getting a lot of negative feedback (or a small amount of very negative feedback), I wouldn't be against moving some kids out of the class, giving the teacher a sit down, etc

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

Plus, the added bonus that teachers will be less of a dick/bitch to a kid they don't like when the other teachers see that interaction, at least part of the day. The other teachers would step in when they see the teacher being destructive.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]


And who would teach them this if the teachers are unwise and destructive?

[/ QUOTE ]

life will teach them this. Your idea that everyone needs a teacher is self defeating because how did the first initial person learn anything or are you proposing an infinite regression?

[ QUOTE ]
As is all too common, your post is self-defeating.

[/ QUOTE ]

example? where are your posts showing why that is so on any other topic ive addressed?

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And who would teach them this if the teachers are unwise and destructive?

[/ QUOTE ]

life will teach them this. Your idea that everyone needs a teacher is self defeating because how did the first initial person learn anything or are you proposing an infinite regression?

[/ QUOTE ]

Life will teach infants lessons? 6 year olds learning not to take candy from strangers the hard way?


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As is all too common, your post is self-defeating.

[/ QUOTE ]

example? where are your posts showing why that is so on any other topic ive addressed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably whenever we've discussed anything. You've made it quite clear that your posts are in reference to some fantasy world in which people are capable of deriving all of modern knowledge in the form of life lessons. Under such circumstances, I have no doubt your political beliefs make some sense.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]

Life will teach infants lessons? 6 year olds learning not to take candy from strangers the hard way?


[/ QUOTE ]

I never said people should not share information.

One can advise a child not to take candy from a stranger because they're unknown dangers and they're best off only using things they're familiar with and trust.

This is in contrast to telling a child not take candy from a stranger because i said so.

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Probably whenever we've discussed anything. You've made it quite clear that your posts are in reference to some fantasy world in which people are capable of deriving all of modern knowledge in the form of life lessons. Under such circumstances, I have no doubt your political beliefs make some sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Until you provide an example i'll assume you're having a fight with me and my ideas in some fantasy land of your own.

PLEASE PROVIDE AN EXAMPLE

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to be that a far better system would be to have teachers stay with a class for several years (say 1st-6th grade, 7th-9th, 10th-12th, or something similar).

[/ QUOTE ]

The Russian system does (or at least used to do) this. It's great for some number of students, but God help you if the teacher dislikes you for whatever reason. Additionally, what tends to happen is that two classes in the same school wind up with widely different amounts of knowledge (or even slants on) the same material over time. Bad idea, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, my girlfriend is a first grade teacher and we've talked about this a bunch. She is in favor of a system like this (its called "looping" in the US, some schools do it for like K-3) and we basically came to the conclusion that it is a much higher variance system but its also definitely +EV. Its contingent on a bunch of factors though. If most of your teachers are competent and most of your kids are decent, its a better system because it eliminates a HUGE amount of inefficiency. Especially at these younger ages where most of the time is spent on the teacher learning how to reach each particular child/parent combo. Sure, you risk the situation where an incompetent teacher has an inordinate amount of influence on one group, and while its obv not possible to eliminate ALL incompetent teachers, spending time and effort on doing THAT in order to protect a +EV looping system seems like a better use of time and money.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
adan,

I thought the same thing. The system I had in mind (this came over a few sessions of hitting the fine hobbit leaf so details are a bit hazy) involved large "main classes" that would be supervised by multiple teachers, and then being split into much smaller classes for maybe 1/2 or 2/3 of the day. These smaller classes would deal with much more specific subjects, students would be given problems to work on/think about, and much of the work would be done in groups in these "main classes" under general supervision.

In theory this would allow for smaller classes, more specialized instruction, but not necessarily a much larger demand for teachers (just better teachers).

[/ QUOTE ]

this is how the schools work where i grew up. You have a home room teacher who usually accompanies your class for about 2-3 years and you leave homeroom for special subjects like art, french, science etc.

There was little specialization though since our science teachers were usually workshop or gym teachers having had their programs cut. Those who would be effective science teachers and the like seem unlikely to be in the position to be teaching us since effective rewards dont work their way through the public system. First day of class usually started by the teacher proclaiming how they will try their best but to be honest know very little about the subject they were about to teach - a caveat im thankful for since some other teachers didnt have the honesty to mention this.

The length of time spent with teachers had little positive effect on anything, however, IMO. The more teachers you get though id say the better since the odds of finding a good one are increased and a good teacher can be invaluable. There is a lot of danger in having kids become accostomed to one style of ideas.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]


I never said people should not share information.

One can advise a child not to take candy from a stranger because they're unknown dangers and they're best off only using things they're familiar with and trust.

This is in contrast to telling a child not take candy from a stranger because i said so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not exactly a prodigy at dealing with children, but I'm 100% sure this is not how to do it.

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I never said people should not share information.

One can advise a child not to take candy from a stranger because they're unknown dangers and they're best off only using things they're familiar with and trust.

This is in contrast to telling a child not take candy from a stranger because i said so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not exactly a prodigy at dealing with children, but I'm 100% sure this is not how to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you'd stick with latter option?

Re: An actually interesting Teacher-Student problem.....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I never said people should not share information.

One can advise a child not to take candy from a stranger because they're unknown dangers and they're best off only using things they're familiar with and trust.

This is in contrast to telling a child not take candy from a stranger because i said so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not exactly a prodigy at dealing with children, but I'm 100% sure this is not how to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you'd stick with latter option?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obvously you want to teach kids to use critical thinking, but yeah, to act like kids don't need teachers/mentors to impart particular knowledge on them is absurd.