Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Villain runs at 20/16/3. His turn aggro is 4.6 and his stats suggest he likes to float so I went for the stack a donk. Is this river a mandatory call?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($59.05)
BB ($11)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($95.25)</font>
MP ($72.75)
CO ($84.60)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($50)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, MP calls $1.75, CO calls $1.75, Button calls $1.75, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($7.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $5.

Turn: ($17.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($17.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $17.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $43.25 (All-In)</font>, Hero....

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

i guess anything is possible, but people generally don't play top pair or overpairs like this on the flop/turn. drawless flop too, except for 64/A4/45/56. mathematically, probably a bad call, but in reality who the hell knows.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I call and have villain show A3s ftw.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I just hate folding after putting in 1/2 my stack.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

definitely call.

You are only really behind 22/55/88 and he could easily be value towning worse

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Thats what I figured, especially since my hand looks fishy after the turn check.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I think this is a reluctant fold, honestly. Villain is showing massive strength after we show massive strength. What hand is mistakenly value raising here? Is JJ raising expecting you to call with A8?

It's a bluff or a monster. I just don't see that many river bluff raise all-ins from villains. If any moderate hand thinks you're bluffing, they'll call.

Your psb really looks like a whiffed crai, too.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

So 1/2 you guys call and 1/2 fold...hmmm

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

There is no way in hell you can fold here profitably.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Generally stack-a-donk means that you get raised on the flop, then decide to c/r AI on the turn. In this hand he just called so there's no guarantee for a turn bet so I'd just continue firing EVEN with your stat read, I want value out of those 8's and pairs and 45s'. As played, against a good/thinking player I call this, your line looks pretty bluffy and the only hand that beats you is 3x.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

First of all who cares? Thank you for the internet lingo update, I care about the hand.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

eh I call here, your probably behind a fair amount but honestly your line looks so fos his range is wider than normal for doing this. Potting this river planning on folding to a raise is gross.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

FWIW I wasnt planning on folding, especially with 1/2 my stack in. Im just used to the dogma of river aggression = nutz. Of course as usual it was close to it but I thought my line looks so bluffy that a call isnt terrible.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

All right...

On to the hand, the odd thing is that I don't see what else than 45s or A4 villain would bluff with here. This doesn't really make sense for other hands than those, A3 or a set, so weird. Bah I still don't think I could fold this but it's a pretty interesting spot.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

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First of all who cares? Thank you for the internet lingo update, I care about the hand.

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Way to be a dick. His point is that to expect a villain to bet the turn so you can check/raise, you need him to show aggression on the flop. High turn aggression does not automatically mean he's going to bet when you check, especially when he's played the flop passively.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I don't really like the stack-a-donk line here. You bet into 4 people. If villain is competent at all he has to realize you have something. I would just bet the turn for value.

As played, I think river is a fold. I don't get people saying it's a call. Is a 20/16 ever shoving as a bluff here? That's pretty ballsy. Is he ever shoving worse, like 99? Probably &lt;10%.

Yeah, your hand looks like a bluff, but if villain has a marginal hand (which is what he's represented so far) he's just calling. Why would he raise if he thinks you're bluffing? It's more likely that he slowplayed to trap.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

[ QUOTE ]
Way to be a dick. His point is that to expect a villain to bet the turn so you can check/raise, you need him to show aggression on the flop. High turn aggression does not automatically mean he's going to bet when you check, especially when he's played the flop passively.

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His first response was saying how I used the term stack a donk incorrectly. I dont need to be advised on internet lingo, so call me a dick if you like but I really dont care. I am so tired of peope nit picking the most stupid [censored]. I post a hand where I think it is a really tough spot and I have my terminology criticized? You gotta be kidding me. As far as the second part of villain not betting, that is a risk one takes by pulling this move. His stats suggest that he floats, the standard low flop af, higher turn af, low fold to c-bet. That was my reason for going for it, like I said originally.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like the stack-a-donk line here. You bet into 4 people. If villain is competent at all he has to realize you have something. I would just bet the turn for value.

As played, I think river is a fold. I don't get people saying it's a call. Is a 20/16 ever shoving as a bluff here? That's pretty ballsy. Is he ever shoving worse, like 99? Probably &lt;10%.

Yeah, your hand looks like a bluff, but if villain has a marginal hand (which is what he's represented so far) he's just calling. Why would he raise if he thinks you're bluffing? It's more likely that he slowplayed to trap.

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I will agree with the part about not going for the stack a donk here though. Although his stats suggest he floats, which he definitely does, especially after seeing results of hand, I shouldnt have assumed he is going to bet the turn after I bet into 4 people. Normally I also agree about the river being a fold by my line looks so bluffy. The other problem is I have so much of my stack in there. I couldnt c/c in fear that he checks behind a weaker pp. I cant really b/f due to stack sizes, so I figured my only option was b/c at the time.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Look man, I think you post some interesting hands and your strategy advice is very sound. I respect your game and your opinion. However, this is at least the 2nd time in a month that you have lashed out at somebody in the forum for not focusing on the issues you want to discuss. Lighten up, ok? The guy wasn't trying to criticize your terminology, he was trying to express why he didn't think a c/r was the proper play in this situation, which differs significantly from a standard stack-a-donk situation in that the flop was not raised and the pot is still small enough that villain would not necessarily be committed by his turn bet even if it occurred.

Anyway, I agree that the river is a tough spot. You've obviously under-repped your hand at this point, so an observant opponent very well could be bluff raising here hoping for a fold. He could be doing this with A8 possibly as well. As played I would probably call and puke in my mouth after seeing him flip over a 3.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Im really not trying to be an ass, I honestly just dont see the point of someone talking about the words I use to describe a situation. I think its completely irrelevant and a waste. Its like the same post as when someone has two or three major decisions to make and the person says "fold pf." Well thank you for that insight, but assuming we didnt fold pf, what do we do now? It may seem like a side note but whenever I even say fold pf, I make sure to say what I would have done assuming I dont. A post about my terminology is about as useful as a fold pf to me. The second part of the post is fine but the first part is just nit picking imho. Oh and if I lashed out at someone else it was probably for a decent reason. I dont just go off on people but if someone is posting a hand and it is clear what strategy is to be discussed, why even waste your time talking about something completely different? When I see people post like that it makes me think they have no idea what to do but just want to post something. If you dont know what to do then just say that but try anyway but dont go off on some tangent. Now I made a thread where I felt was fairly interesting into something that belongs in BBV.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I usually bet a little more on the flop because you can get a lot of value from pocket pairs and random 8's. On the turn I dont really like the check i feel you can still get a lot of value from the same hands as the flop as the 5 isn't terrible scary.

I call the push pretty fast.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I was thinking about my bet sizing but the flop is so dry that I thought that a difference in bet size was negligible. Plus maybe I was being hopeful but I was thinking I could possibly get 2 callers on a 5 bet as opposed to 1 on a 6.5. There really isnt anything to protect against so I would want some random mid pp to think "oh a small bet and a small flop, I can call that"

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

board isn't very good for stack a donk btw. If he bets like half pot on the turn I don't think I'd ever raise. Might check/call check/call.

Your river bet is pretty big btw. I'd be surprised if he's trying to bluff that, but at the same time he shouldn't be checking the turn with any two pair hands. I could see check raising the river if the dude is prone to bet TT+ here when checked too. Should have a solid read to pull that one tho.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Say I bet like 12 on the river, can I fold even then? It seems like any normal size bets gets me to put in around 40% or more of my stack. I had no read on villain other than stats and he gave me no reason to believe he is going to bet this river. I would have wanted to smack myself if I check and he checks behind 99 or some [censored].

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Without knowing he shoved the river I wouldn't think he's much stronger than TT here, so thats why I'd lean towards a smaller bet rather than a big potsized bet. You could conceivably do that with JJ+ here since villian cold called button...

On a board that dry betting into 3 opponents no matter what betsize you do on the river he's almost never going to believe your betting with air twice.

If the guy is bluffing its really spewy on his part. You show up with JJ+ here a lot and it's a pretty weird river card for you to fold on.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

problem is your range looks really polarized after that pot sized bet, I'm not saying that the bet size was bad (it could be though), but it makes things tough when he shoves. However, you are getting 3:1 and there really aren't many combos that you lose to. A3s, 43s, 22/33/55/88 so that's 9. i divided sets by 2 because it's unlikely. In fact I think I'm being a little generous. We need to be ahead of only 3 combos. I think that makes it a call, esp given the turn check.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I agree with Checkthenuts about the river bet sizing and the reason for it. His river shove really doesn't look like a bluff. Few villians would shove over a PSB as a bluff after you bet into the field on the flop and although you checked the turn your river bet wouldn't look like air to me. And on this board given the action it's probably either air or big pair+ so if he had a mediocre hand he would call. It's sick because of the odds you're getting on a call. I would say call but with the right read it'd be a fold and it's probably marginal either way.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I'm likely betting the turn. Don't know how strong your stats read about him being a floater is, but given it's 4-ways on the flop, there's still plenty of value to be made from his made hands and he's likely to pot control with these hands I think betting is probably better.

I bet less on the river. Now I think I fold. If he did float the flop he would have bet the turn when you checked so when he checks the turn it's likely either with a monster or a bluff catcher (there's no draws without sd value). He won't push a bluff catcher on the river so voila, monster. Great odds make it close though.

Also OP, you get one vote from me being the worst nitpicker in the thread. Baba explained why he would bet the turn and why it would be better to crai turn if it had be a true stack-a-donk situation, one of the better posts in the thread.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I think you should fold here. You'd be happy if he called, but when he raises you are almost never good. I think he has some kind of hand or a missed draw. A missed draw never bluffs over a big bet at this level imho, and a weak hand would just call, not turn into a bluff.

Also I would just c/c or c/f river, as played. I think at this point KK has more value as a bluff catcher.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Nick what stakes are you playing and for how long?

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nick what stakes are you playing and for how long?

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Started playing 600nl-1000nl in august, before that 400nl since may and before that 200nl. Still play some 400.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I never thought villain was bluffing, obviously thats close to impossible here. However, this isnt TT/99 often enough getting those odds? Oh and to everyone who thinks I was a dick, Im sorry. I felt like I had a valid argument for why it was a wasted post but I guess Im wrong so yea, thanks for your input.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

Profish,

I was NOT nit-picking. The whole point of my post was to illustrate why I thought a stack-a-donk won't work here. English is my 3rd language so maybe it didn't come off like I wanted it to but I was merely pointing out that you should bet the turn here because villain showed no aggression on the flop.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

I apologized already, it came off as you were focusing on something that didnt need to be focused on but I seem to have been incorrect. Sorry again, thanks for your advice.

Re: Failed stack a donk vs random river aggro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a reluctant fold, honestly. Villain is showing massive strength after we show massive strength. What hand is mistakenly value raising here? Is JJ raising expecting you to call with A8?

It's a bluff or a monster. I just don't see that many river bluff raise all-ins from villains. If any moderate hand thinks you're bluffing, they'll call.

Your psb really looks like a whiffed crai, too.

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this is correct