Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

My opponent in this hand had been limping in with a lot of garbage. I assumed he didn't have much, so I thought a solid raise would take it down preflop. With the blinds and antes and his call, I thought it was worth a shot to build my stack.

Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, 600/1,200 Blinds, 150 Ante, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: 15,110
BTN: 25,283
Hero (SB): 25,640
BB: 13,850
UTG: 15,391
UTG+1: 6,168
UTG+2: 57,665
MP1: 21,190
MP2: 49,646

Pre-Flop: (3,150) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
4 folds, MP2 calls 1,200, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to 4,000</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls 2,800

Flop: (10,550) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">MP2 bets 1,200</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to 8,000</font>, MP2 folds

Maybe I butchered this flop; maybe I didn't. I'm not sure. I hoped that my check would make him think I tried to steal and whiffed. Then I thought maybe a big raise would look like another steal. I didn't think there was any way for him to put me on a 5. I guess he probably just didn't have anything and I wasn't going to make anything more.

How would you guys recommend playing this flop? Being OOP made it tough for me to decide what to do.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

check call flop, check call turn, raise river.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

I'd lead the flop...

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

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I'd lead the flop...

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Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

Against a thinking player, I'd probably bet out, hope it looks like a continuation bet. Otherwise, I just trap him and make him pay later on.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

I think the preflop raise is ok if he's been limping a lot, but it is too small. He is getting almost 3-1 to call and has position. You both have enough of a stack that any limping hand should be ok with calling without being committed to going all the way. I would have raised to about 6000 and if he calls, you have 19K chips left with and about 14-15K in the pot. This is just enough that if an ace or non-threatening flop hits, you can shove but if not, can still get away from it. In the instance of flopping the monster as you did, you could check and hopefully induce a big bet from him.

As played, I think a slowplay to the river is best, unless the third club hits on the turn. I don't worry much about a flush draw at this point...considering he bet 1200 into a 10k pot, he probably doesn't know a whole lot about the pot odds regarding a flush draw and you probably won't get him off it anyway. There is a lot more value in getting into an eventual all-in situation that there is worrying about the flush. Even if he did make one on fourth street, you still would have 10 redraw outs.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

With a limp, I raise more preflop, to about 4800. As played, lead this flop as a check raise looks much stronger and he may play back at you if you bet out.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

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check call flop, check call turn, raise river.

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Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

A check-raise screams strength.

I would probably either (1) bet out 1/3 to look weak or (2) c/c flop, c/r turn.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

fold pf

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

I'd def lead this flop after raising pre. The only question should be for how much. If MP2 is aggro and/or plays his draws strongly, i'd prob make a weak c-bet for 5500. If he's the type to just call with a draw, i'd bet 7500. Checking the flop is a big mistake here given the action pre.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

I agree that check raising generally indicates more strength than just betting. I regretted doing it afterwards. I think I probably should have just led out on the flop.

Someone else said check-call the flop and check-call the turn as long as another club doesn't come. I think that's a fair suggestion. I feel my hand is strong enough to slowplay it like that. Then I could probably just shove the river.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

I think leading out is also a decent play and on second thought, perhaps the better one. A hand like a small pair or even just an ace may be tempted to call you down. You mentioned that he had limped into a lot of pots...this could either indicate a calling station or someone who thinks he can outplay anyone after the flop. Was there any indication of what kind of post-flop player he was from all those other limped hands?

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

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I'd lead the flop...

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or check call check raise

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

You were the preflop raiser, so just cbet the flop.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

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I'd lead the flop...

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Almost always. Except maybe not with these stacks. We have 20k left to play on the flop and pot is 10k. Any decent size bet 1/2 3/4 or pot sized bet almost commits us and our opponent sees that too. I think check/call here isn't so bad if you wanna gamble and give him a card or two (you're not going to donk the turn so if he checks behind on the turn...it's 2).

So what gets more of his money in? Probably a check/call and pray he bets the turn.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

Let's look at this from villain's point of view. You reraise, so you probably have AQ+, 99+, but could have whatever like you do. He flat called, so he probably doesn't have AA-JJ or AK, but he does not decent high cards or a pp.

The flop comes low and paired. If he doesn't have a pp, he doesn't like this, because you probably have an overpair or AK. You check, he minbets to probe whether you are checking a big hand. You checkraise. He puts you on QQ-AA and folds.

I would just cbet this. If you slowplay, what are you representing by slowplaying? Preflop, you are representing JJ+, AK with the reraise. You should like this flop with those hands and want to get the money in.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

I think you make a mistake preflop by raising to t$4000, on the grounds that against a half decent player you're probably not taking this down without a stronger raise - you give him very good odds to call.

I'm not sure I see the merit in check-calling. I'm fairly sure this is one of those situations where you're unlikely to extract a great deal of value unless you lead out the flop. Because his likely range is so wide, he may well have flopped the sort of hand he is likely to call along with - top pair, straight draw, FD, 66 etc. You might get lucky and find him re-raising with 88 or something like that. The other advantage of leading the flop is that, depending on your image, this looks like the sort of flop you'll have missed most of the time, and he might raise you - though that's unlikely given the fact that he'll pot commit himself in so doing.

As played, I hate the check-raise. As a means of getting chips in the pot it's awful because there's almost no holding that villain will minbet and then either call or shove over a check-raise. So after you check, calling is probably correct, on the grounds that it might encourage him to bluff later streets. I do agree with your final assessment that he has nothing and can't play further - but his weak flop lead should give you a clue about this in general.

In summary, lead the flop because there a lot more hands that he can call a flop bet with than hands which he can call a check-raise with.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

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I think you make a mistake preflop by raising to t$4000, on the grounds that against a half decent player you're probably not taking this down without a stronger raise - you give him very good odds to call.
I'm not sure I see the merit in check-calling. I'm fairly sure this is one of those situations where you're unlikely to extract a great deal of value unless you lead out the flop. Because his likely range is so wide, he may well have flopped the sort of hand he is likely to call along with - top pair, straight draw, FD, 66 etc. You might get lucky and find him re-raising with 88 or something like that. The other advantage of leading the flop is that, depending on your image, this looks like the sort of flop you'll have missed most of the time, and he might raise you - though that's unlikely given the fact that he'll pot commit himself in so doing.

As played, I hate the check-raise. As a means of getting chips in the pot it's awful because there's almost no holding that villain will minbet and then either call or shove over a check-raise. So after you check, calling is probably correct, on the grounds that it might encourage him to bluff later streets. I do agree with your final assessment that he has nothing and can't play further - but his weak flop lead should give you a clue about this in general.

In summary, lead the flop because there a lot more hands that he can call a flop bet with than hands which he can call a check-raise with.

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I guess what I'm thinking here is I have the benifit of seeing the our check and his bet. His bet means he has garbage (ace high or inside draw maybe) and wouldn't have called a c-bet or a check raise. Like I said... I normally lead out here. But with the knowledge of his action, I'm c/c-ing to see if he takes another stab at it. Especially if he's an aggressive villian which his stack somewhat implies. So ya... guess that's the same thing.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

PF steal is fine, but I'd feel more comfortable making it 5k to go.

My initial thought was wtf just bet the flop but now I'm not so sure. Assuming this guy is somewhat of a loose/passive (which probably isn't at bad read at these levels) c-betting this flop is not the most cEV+. I think his range is geared towards hands like KJ, A8 and he's not floating the flop enough for me to like betting out.

I absolutely hate c/r the flop. What hand could he limp/call a raise with that could withstand a c/r on this board? It might be one thing if he bet 7k on the flop, or a more cordinated board, but this is not the spot. Unless he has 77 I just don't see you getting any action. Just give the guy a chance to make a mistake.

Re: Tried to steal...flopped a monster...screwed it up?
 

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A check-raise screams strength.

I would probably either (1) bet out 1/3 to look weak or (2) c/c flop, c/r turn.

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As played preflop I like both of these lines and would mix it up based history with the player