NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

Villain 1 had been running 20/10 over 30 hands so the sample size wasn't much.

Villain 2 was new to the table.

Villain 1 had stole blinds once already and I felt he was doing it again so I figured I'd repop him. I re-raised and then Villain 2 in the BB called, Villain 1 on the button folded. Villain 2 had only 8 behind, so, what do you do on the flop - check, bet and if bet, how much?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($12.30)
UTG ($21.55)
UTG+1 ($32.65)
MP1 ($22)
MP2 ($17.10)
MP3 ($44.45)
CO ($5.55)
Button ($25.65)
Hero ($34.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, BB calls $3.75, CO folds, Button folds.

Flop: ($9.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero??

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

*bizzump*

No one can help with this?

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

I lead for 7-8 here, I don't think restealing is worth it at nl25 without a solid read over hundreds of hands that villain is a blind stealer. Just because he did it last time, doesn't mean he's a chronic blind stealer, and this is too fancy/unnecessary for nl25.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

Hmmmm,
I might just let this one go pre-flop because the limper is in there.
I like a better read than just one steal before I go repoping.

As played since its 3-way I dont really want to c-bet, If im feeling frisky I might.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

Some of the responses confuse me, perhaps they were made before the post was edited.

It appears to be HU SBvBB. I'd c-bet around $6.50 because that's the amount I'd bet here with AK and that board. I'd fold to a reraise, if called I'd evaluate the turn.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the responses confuse me, perhaps they were made before the post was edited.

It appears to be HU SBvBB. I'd c-bet around $6.50 because that's the amount I'd bet here with AK and that board. I'd fold to a reraise, if called I'd evaluate the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the responses were made after the edit as the only thing I edited was the thread title because I made a typo.

What you guys aren't getting is the pot is heads up, but the SB only has 8 behind so I c-bet pretty much commits us with garbage.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

didn't see stack size c/f then. I still don't like the 3bet preflop

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

Fold preflop. As you said, these guys are unknowns and you can't even guess their ranges. Maybe button is a nit and he don't raise (steal blinds) without a real hand. Maybe they are loose stations who are ready to gamble. Why you risk? Why? You are SB and why you are protecting your SB with a quite weak hand against unknowns. So, its very clear fold to me.

As played, I would check/fold flop. As Sounded Simple said - its 3way. But I want to add: As I already said - they are unknowns and now you completely missed your flop. You don't have clue what is their range but I think ace is in their range. Just check/fold the flop.

Shortly: I don't recommend to protect your blind (especially small blind) with a weak hand against unknowns.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What you guys aren't getting is the pot is heads up, but the SB only has 8 behind so I c-bet pretty much commits us with garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get it's heads up, BB is either got a monster and was somehow afraid to raise pre-flop thinking it would scare everyone out, or has crap and a called anyway.

At 25NL this is often just crap. Small pocket pair, SC and the like.

Since BB recently came to the table, and is short, it means he brought in short. Often these players are set miners (who do so without any odds). They'll fold to a bet here if they don't make a set, and push if they do.

Sure, you're commited to their short stack push, but you'll take this down very often.

You've taken the iniative, why give it up on an A high flop? The card most likely to be in your hand.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some of the responses confuse me, perhaps they were made before the post was edited.

It appears to be HU SBvBB. I'd c-bet around $6.50 because that's the amount I'd bet here with AK and that board. I'd fold to a reraise, if called I'd evaluate the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the responses were made after the edit as the only thing I edited was the thread title because I made a typo.

What you guys aren't getting is the pot is heads up, but the SB only has 8 behind so I c-bet pretty much commits us with garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry! Dunno how I misread that one.
My pre-flop thoughts still stand.

Post flop your pretty much guessing without a read, he is not folding an ace and he may well look you up with any pair so Im tempted to let it go.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

Why is everyone responding as if this is a three way pot?

It's heads up SB vs BB.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

Don't like pre-flop.

As played, easy flop bet.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't like pre-flop.

As played, easy flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is only easy if we know he puts 1/4 of his stack in with a lot of hands.
We would also need to know that he lays down 88 etc. here.

I just get the feeling you get looked up a lot here.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't like pre-flop.

As played, easy flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your thinking as to why it's an easy flop bet?

pt - I'm probably never going to do this again as apparently everyone thinks it's the wrong thing to do.

I just wanted to re-steal from the button but I guess it's not something to do from the SB. Would anyone do it from the BB? If you wouldn't do it because it's NL25, at what levels might you consider to start doing this?

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

I wouldn't do it to an unknown, not just because its NL25.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't do it to an unknown, not just because its NL25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, against someone we know - what kind of stats are we looking for villain to have in order to try this?

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't do it to an unknown, not just because its NL25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, get a good read over a decent sample then play back at him.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

I would fold preflop and try to get a better read than "he raised the button last time." There isn't much one can infer from 2 steals in a row other than the fact that the guy can raise in position.

If you're unfamiliar with Bayesian inference, you can check it out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference

It's also discussed in <u>Mathematics of Poker</u>. You need more evidence about villain's play to reraise liberally here.

As played, if stacks were deeper, I find that people are less likely to cold call out of the big blind with an AX hand than they are a pocket pair. This flop misses most of those PPs, so I would bet and give up on the rest of the hand if called/raised, unless a really great bluff card shows up on the turn. You should be able to fold out JJ-22 (which didn't hit their set), and possibly QQ or KK.
With deeper stack sizes, if villain cold-calls out of the big blind with a hand like AQ or AJ and refuses to fold the flop, make a note of his looseness and take him to valuetown the next time you DO have a hand like AK/AQ/AA/77/22 in this spot.

As played with the actual stack sizes, c/f all streets unless you runner-runner 2pair+ on a check-down.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is only easy if we know he puts 1/4 of his stack in with a lot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Morons put in tons of money preflop trying to "get lucky" with random suited garbage.

You have more FE than you think on this flop.

It's very hard for villain to call here without at least top pair. If he calls with 88 or whatever, just hit a Q and bust him.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is only easy if we know he puts 1/4 of his stack in with a lot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Morons put in tons of money preflop trying to "get lucky" with random suited garbage.

You have more FE than you think on this flop.

It's very hard for villain to call here without at least top pair. If he calls with 88 or whatever, just hit a Q and bust him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question -
Is it reasonable to assume that he is a moron because he put in 1/4 of his stack in a 3-bet pot preflop?

Also,
Do you make this move on any board or do you like the fact that its got a 2 (that he is less likely to hit)?

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't like pre-flop.

As played, easy flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is only easy if we know he puts 1/4 of his stack in with a lot of hands.
We would also need to know that he lays down 88 etc. here.

I just get the feeling you get looked up a lot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't know much about villain, but we do know he plays 25NL short stacked. So right there he plays scared.

We also know villain put 25% of his stack in preflop, after a limp, a raise, a reraise, and villain is out of position, plus villain just came to table.

Most of what we know about villain is he or she likely sucks. I see people make this play at 25NL all the time, they limp a small pocket pair or suited garbage, or even unsuited garbage for a huge percentage of their stack, then fold to a bet on an A high flop.

Yes, you'll get called here sometimes, but you are taking it down most of the time.

Any pair less than AA likely folds here given the action.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

When he calls out of the BB he has to have a huge hand or is just a moron. To be honest I don't like a cont bet here, becaue even if he has KK/QQ he is probably calling the flop and seeing what happens on the turn and you shouldn't ever double barrell in this situation. And if he has AK/AA he obv is calling/re-raising too.

Your best play is either c/f or c/r. Check/folding is obv the safest, but if you c/r he should laydon KK/QQespecially since your line looks super strong. KK/QQ are more probable than AA/AK in this spot for him to have. You can def rep AK/AA by doing this too.

EDIT: Just noticed the stack sizes, I would never check/raise him with him being so freakin short. This is a 100 percent check/fold.

Re: NL $25 - Resteal from the blind gone wrong?
 

I woundnt be sure that they play scared, perhaps they play to gamble?
LOL - your pretty much right that they probably suck given this action!

Not sure that you can always get pairs to fold when there is only &lt;1 PSB left.

However thinking it through perhaps there are enough combos of broadways that missed to make a shove +EV.
Come to think of it there are a lot more combos of crap than there are pairs that he could have here and we dont even need to fold him out 50% of the time.

OK I change my mind Arrrrrr in LOL.