KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $247.98
BB: $50.78
UTG: $39.50
CO: $51.81
Hero (BTN): $86.11

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $2</font>, Hero calls $2, 2 folds

Flop: ($4.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $3.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.50</font>, CO calls $5

Turn: ($21.75) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($21.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $20</font>, Hero folds

Results: $21.75 Pot
CO mucked and WON $40.67 (+$30.17 NET)

villain is meowchow 2p2 24/12/2 TAG who may or may not know who I am - I am playing TAG.

comments and stuff to the usual address.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

What is his c-bet% ? If its over 80 I do this often. However, I am firing that turn also, but Im a hyper aggro monkey sometimes. You have to figure that the ace is definitely a scare card to him often enough to justify betting it. Worse that happens is he raises you and then I gamble getting odds on my gs and flush draw.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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villain is meowchow 2p2 24/12/2 TAG


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Sorry for the hijacking but what exactly does "meowchow" mean. I keep hearing it tossed around this forum but haven't been around long enough to pick up on the context.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

I agree with Profish, the turn is a good card to bet out on. It gives you so many more outs.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

I prefer to 3 bet pf, though I will mix in some calls too. His range is going to be wide so reraising is going to be profitable. Plus, both of you will miss the flop often so that means you either have to fold or make a move.

Raising this flop is okay. I think your raise is to small. I'd probably make it $11. You want some FE. Also, I'm not really sure what you're repping. AQ or KQ I guess. Still, if he has air he should fold.

Personally, I like calling and seeing what happens on the turn better. If he fired the turn that would be a great card to raise. As played, I think you should fire the turn. River is a fold.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the hijacking but what exactly does "meowchow" mean. I keep hearing it tossed around this forum but haven't been around long enough to pick up on the context.

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It just means a player that is boring, unimaginative. Someone who plays very straightforward. At least, that's what I take it to mean.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

thing is if I call and fire the turn - or as played fire the turn and get raised and have to call or w/e and miss I am back to 100bb.

There is a deep stacked fish at the table and playing the hand this way passively means I lose the least when I don't hit and then still have a 150bb stack to go fish shooting with.

I think villain fires a whiffed draw here a chunk of the time - tho I'd guess Axss is some of those "missed" draws.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

if you fire the turn, you are repping AsXs or a 3. Its very strong imo. He will have to fold a queen everytime. The only way he can continue is if he has one of those hands that you are representing. If he calls, you still have 9 outs. Had you bet the turn and he called, you could have checked behind on the river J, which I think will be good here quite a bit.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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The only way he can continue is if he has one of those hands that you are representing.[Axss 3x]

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Had you bet the turn and he called, you could have checked behind on the river J, which I think will be good here quite a bit.

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does not compute.

If he calls with Axss or a 3 - my rivered J is no good.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

If villain is any good, I don't get why he is firing so large on the river. You're line looks like missed spades or air that gave up on the turn.
If he has a good hand, what does he expect you to call a psb on river with after your turn check?

I fire the turn here given flop raise, it's very hard for him to continue without an A.

I understand what you're saying about wanting to be deepstacked against the fish, but there's no guarantee that that big pot will come against you, and I wouldn't let it affect your decisions.

FWIW, if I'm making a play at this pot, I'm more inclined to float than bluff raise his cbet. Raising says I have a strong Q, spade draw, a 3 or air, as you're unlikely to turn a PP into a bluff here.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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[ QUOTE ]
The only way he can continue is if he has one of those hands that you are representing.[Axss 3x]

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Had you bet the turn and he called, you could have checked behind on the river J, which I think will be good here quite a bit.

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does not compute.

If he calls with Axss or a 3 - my rivered J is no good.

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the first part is a realistic assessment, but he easily calls with a different draw. lol. Should have mentioned that, I guess im just jaded by the fact that his river bet is a bluff or QQ.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

3bet pf

float the flop.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

3b pre.

If you just call, fold flop. If you don't wanna fold, just float with a call.

That's such a bluffable board to raise with air. What legit hands are you raising there?

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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3bet pf

float the flop.

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Is KJs ahead of opener's raising range? Is it ahead of his 3bet CALLING range? If the answer is no to both of these then you're turning your hand into a bluff, which I suppose isn't that bad. But if it's ahead of his raising range but not his 3bet CALLING range then it makes more sense to call and see a flop IP.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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[ QUOTE ]
3bet pf

float the flop.

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Is KJs ahead of opener's raising range? Is it ahead of his 3bet CALLING range? If the answer is no to both of these then you're turning your hand into a bluff, which I suppose isn't that bad. But if it's ahead of his raising range but not his 3bet CALLING range then it makes more sense to call and see a flop IP.

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yes

debatable, but we have position + aggression.

your argument isn't really applicable here.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

Unless you have QQ+ you are never gonna be ahead of a 3 bettors calling range.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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Unless you have QQ+ you are never gonna be ahead of a 3 bettors calling range.

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You'd be surprised.

Wait, are you saying a 3better who calls a 4bet? Or someone raises, gets 3bet and calls the 3bet? Cuz the latter is what I'm talking about.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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yes

debatable, but we have position + aggression.

your argument isn't really applicable here.

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I'm not really sure how it isn't applicable here... Care to elaborate? (I'm just learning all this stuff myself so this is good for me).

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

I am saying the latter. And it really doesn't matter because I don't think your argument has much merit. Position and initiative trump "calling range" and the much overused "turning your hand into a bluff"

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

Sorry to side track here but: Thats a pretty interesting point aj. If QQ+ are pretty much the only hands that are ahead of a 3 bet range then why do we do it at all with weaker hands other than to get pf folds? Does initiative make up that much of a difference? May sound noobish but Im really curious.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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I am saying the latter. And it really doesn't matter because I don't think your argument has much merit. Position and initiative trump "calling range" and the much overused "turning your hand into a bluff"

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AJ I think you're giving way too much credit to 3bet callers if you say they're only calling w/QQ+.

Also, I still think the point does have merit in this situation. I agree that position and initiave are good things here however that means your cards really don't matter. You can do this with ATC and still have initiative and position. Why waste KJs by 3betting and turning it into a bluff (as much as you think it's overused it's still very valid IMO)? I don't see how this is not a valid argument.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

Why do you almost min-raise the flop, as in do you use these extra small raises otherwise? On to the hand, if you want to steal this pot it's much better to just call the flop and bet if he checks/probably fold if he bets again on the turn. To villain, a call on the flop looks stronger than a raise.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to side track here but: Thats a pretty interesting point aj. If QQ+ are pretty much the only hands that are ahead of a 3 bet range then why do we do it at all with weaker hands other than to get pf folds? Does initiative make up that much of a difference? May sound noobish but Im really curious.

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That's the thing. Your 3bet range should be either A) hands that beat a 3bet caller's range (basically TT/JJ+ and AK/AQ) and B) pure bluffs like 76s (which still can continue if called on the right flop). So I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys don't think this is important in this situation?

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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AJ I think you're giving way too much credit to 3bet callers if you say they're only calling w/QQ+.



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I am saying Hero needs to have QQ+ (maybe JJ+) to be ahead of a Villain's 3b calling range which is what I thought was your original point: are we ahead of villains' 3b calling range with the hand we are 3betting

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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...Why waste KJs by 3betting and turning it into a bluff...

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You're not turning KJs into a bluff by 3 betting, because it's ahead of a standard TAGs CO opening range, IMO.

Also, it's a lot easier to push someone with a marginal hand out pf, than it is to do it on the flop.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

[ QUOTE ]
i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow way off.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

I don't mind the way this hand is played. There are a plethora of options here...you can 3bet pf, but it's not mandatory at all. You can flat the flop, but again a raise isn't so bad. You can bet the turn, but checking is fine.

None of the streets has a mandatory action, and I think this line is fine sometimes.

By the river I think you see Axs a very large percentage of the timne

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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I agree with Profish, the turn is a good card to bet out on. It gives you so many more outs.

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funny I'm usually more inclined to check behind in pos. if the turn card gives me some nice disguised draws...

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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You're not turning KJs into a bluff by 3 betting, because it's ahead of a standard TAGs CO opening range, IMO.


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It doesn't matter what his opening range is. It matters what his 3bet CALLING range is. If he folds to your raise then you can have ATC here, so when he calls will KJs be ahead of his range?

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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I am saying Hero needs to have QQ+ (maybe JJ+) to be ahead of a Villain's 3b calling range which is what I thought was your original point: are we ahead of villains' 3b calling range with the hand we are 3betting

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Ah, so you're saying we need to have QQ+ (maybe JJ+) to be ahead of his 3bet calling range. That very well may be true however you have to keep in mind that some people will call 3bets very loosely.

Regardless, if we're in agreement that hero should have JJ+ to be ahead of villain's 3bet calling range, then why are we 3betting KJs pf? Obviously when he calls we're a major dog, so you're turning KJs into a bluff. Now, if you just call and see a flop, you very well might be the favorite since villain's range is very wide still.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

The biggest reason for me to 3bet here is to iso and not be squeezed. There are more reasons to 3bet marginal hands otb as opposed to from the blinds.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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The biggest reason for me to 3bet here is to iso and not be squeezed. There are more reasons to 3bet marginal hands otb as opposed to from the blinds.

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I think the squeeze comment is valid, however I'm not sure about the iso part. You want to isolate the TAG with your raise, yes? But we've already said that if he's calling your 3bet it's with JJ+ and maybe AK/AQ. How does KJs hold up against this range? I'd much rather 3bet with 54s-98s here.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

BTW guys I think this is a great discussion and is making me really think about the plays discussed here.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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The biggest reason for me to 3bet here is to iso and not be squeezed. There are more reasons to 3bet marginal hands otb as opposed to from the blinds.

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I think the squeeze comment is valid, however I'm not sure about the iso part. You want to isolate the TAG with your raise, yes? But we've already said that if he's calling your 3bet it's with JJ+ and maybe AK/AQ. How does KJs hold up against this range? I'd much rather 3bet with 54s-98s here.

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Iso in the sense that playing against him in a 3bet pot will be easier (and probably more profitable) than playing a 4-way pot if sb and bb come along.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

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It doesn't matter what his opening range is. It matters what his 3bet CALLING range is. If he folds to your raise then you can have ATC here, so when he calls will KJs be ahead of his range?

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Actually, they both matter. If he's opening a wide range and his calling range is small (which a mcTAG usually is) than 3 betting a wide variety of hands will be profitable. KJs is a good hand to do it with and, if called, I at least have something of a hand.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

I fold or 3 bet here . Calling is bad imo unless your are going to float in profitable situations.

3 bet means that he has to fold a lot of his hands that don't play well OOP(e.g AQ,AJ,KQ etc) as well as all garbage, when he does call you have the iniative in the pot and will take down pot a good amount of time with c-bet, and your also playing a pot in position with a hand that has good posibilities(2nd nut flush,nut straight, two pair)

KJ is a mediocre hand to call with even in position as easily dominated, by all means open with it but i never call unless there are already 2 people in pot or fish opens.

An occasional 3 bet in position against decent opponents with medium strength hands is a good play imo as it disguises when you have a really big hand

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

[ QUOTE ]
i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems completely backwards to me. TAG vs TAG, villain barrels the Ace with a very wide range and we should shove over him with all of our new outs. OTOH if he checks the Ace, he will often show up with a made hand planning to c/c or c/rai and snap off a float. Our outs are very disguised, we can rep a busted spade draw when we hit, and it would suck very much to be checkraised. Therefore, if he checks, we should check behind.

Anyway, I think you can either float or raise this flop, and you can either 3bet or flatcall PF, and I don't think either line is clearly better. While this certainly seems like a good board for a float, villain is no doubt aware of this, and will 2barrel with a high frequency. So I don't see that floating is clearly better than raising. I think the hand is fine as played, provided you can profitably raise this flop with all your Queens.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

Apparently I misread the hand, I thought we had nothing on the turn but were just floating cause the flop was paired. Now I wouldn't mind a turn raise if villain bets.

Re: KJs vs LP mcTAG opener
 

woah - this thread got a lot more replies than I expected.

I am still not convinced that 3betting preflop vs a very ABC villain who I have position on is optimal with KJs - when called we are dominated or worse I think and when the pot gets big we have less playing room to try things postflop.

I think w/ position I can win a larger pot without 3betting than I can when I 3bet as usually when I 3b it gets folded pre. Perhaps I think wrong. It's good for shania certainly and I do 3b here sometimes I just chose to flat this time, partly cos *I* am uncomfortable playing 3bet pots still - I suppose the only way to get more comfortable is to practice.

Traz: "being squeezed" - getting squeezed at 50NL is so far down the list of things I worry about. IME it just doesn't happen often enough - and especially when the SB is big fish who thinks squeezing is for lemons (fish, lemon - oh nevermind) I take the point tho that this IS something you need to consider at higher limits. I'm happy if bigstacked fish SB comes for the ride and am expecting him to call lots here - then I have position on TWO bad players with a useful drawing hand and a "lot" =) of implied odds - which strikes me as not all that bad the 20% or so of the time I flop goot.

Perhaps I should raise bigger on the flop or plan instead to flat the flop and bet/raise a scary turn. When I raise flops it's usually to about that kind of size. I get folds often enough to make it profitable despite offering sweet odds for villain to chase his flush if the fd is what he has. I don't want to pay more than I have to to get the job done, IME so far at 50NL that kind of size works out OK as villains seem t worry more about "zomg he raised" than how much I raised and the odds they have after I do.

The way things work out if a non [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T hits or any non Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I just hit the jackpot most likely and I check to preserve my implied odds hoping for a big payday, half expecting a bluff /misplaced value bet from villain on a sweet river for me - planning to check behind river again if villain gives up.

It didn't come and I crawl out of there thinking I folded the best hand a few% of the time - but putting villain on Axss more often than not.

Anyways lots of good food for thought here - thanks for the great content.