Weak TP?
 

I'm new at the table and have no reads. So assume normal 1/2 level play.

1/2 Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Pre-flop: Hero dealt 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in BB

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, <font color="#777777">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls

A loose call from the BB, but I'm expecting it to be at least an 8 SB pot.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10.5 SB, 5 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls

I've got top pair so lead off. CO raise is a problem. Don't like the reraise in this spot so call.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (10.2 BB, 5 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, CO calls, Hero ?

Hmmmm. CO flop raise says move to c/c unimproved, but why has UTG come alive?

So, what's the right Turn play?

Re: Weak TP?
 

CO probably has overcards, his flop raise may even suggest an overpair. The turn card completes a few draws.
UTG waking up may suggest he has A3s and completed his wheel (perhaps even with the nut flush draw).

Even if the wheel is not out there, you have 3 outs at the very best (7c, Tc, Td) and you're getting 14:1.
I don't like it. Even if we hit, we could still be far behind.

Fold the turn...

Re: Weak TP?
 

Brit,

Check/raise the flop. As played I fold the turn. If I was closing the action it would be close.

Re: Weak TP?
 

I strongly prefer check/raising this flop instead of leading off.

Re: Weak TP?
 

check raise the flop.

Re: Weak TP?
 

I join the chorus for flop c/r because the most likely flop bettor i.e. CO is to your immediate right

-&gt; if he bets you face the rest of the cast with calling two bets. They may still call but as the board isn't overly drawy you gain value here. Main reason to c/r is to protect your vulnerable hand that looks like the best hand right now. C/r protects you hand best here.

-&gt; if he does not bet you get a free look at the turn if it is a "safe card" or not and can then donk giving the field ~6:1 odds which might be enough for OCs to fold. Not the best result but ok anyway.

Re: Weak TP?
 

You are in the perfect position to check/raise this flop with the preflop aggressor in late position.

I think you can fold the turn because UTGs range is heavily weighted toward straights and sets which both have you drawing dead. He may have two pair but if one of those is a seven you have only three outs anyway.

Re: Weak TP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
check raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Weak TP?
 

For the flop C/Rs, don't you think the risk is that I'm giving 4 lots of over O/Cs a free draw?

If I'm c/o on a 5 way pot with AJ or somesuch, I'm going to be strongly tempted to take the free card because the fold equity is so low.

Still, it's definitely something I should consider...

Re: Weak TP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the flop C/Rs, don't you think the risk is that I'm giving 4 lots of over O/Cs a free draw?

If I'm c/o on a 5 way pot with AJ or somesuch, I'm going to be strongly tempted to take the free card because the fold equity is so low.

Still, it's definitely something I should consider...

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with btting is that they won't fold OC's n this big pot. So the 'only' chance you have is to get a CR in.

Re: Weak TP?
 

This is a pretty good-sized pot. It's worth running the small risk of giving a free card to protect your hand with a check/raise.

Edit: And people sometimes say that SSHE no longer applies to online games.

Re: Weak TP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the flop C/Rs, don't you think the risk is that I'm giving 4 lots of over O/Cs a free draw?

If I'm c/o on a 5 way pot with AJ or somesuch, I'm going to be strongly tempted to take the free card because the fold equity is so low.

Still, it's definitely something I should consider...

[/ QUOTE ]

don't project your (in this case weak tight) playing tendancies onto your opponents. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
you're in perfect relative position for a c/r...
leading can also be good, particularly if you had a specific read on CO that he is weak and likely to check this through.

Re: Weak TP?
 

[ QUOTE ]

don't project your (in this case weak tight) playing tendancies onto your opponents. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! That's fair. This hand felt wrong the whole way through, and I was very much bugged by the rubbish way I played it.

Though this may havbe been influenced by the fact I folded the turn and after a K river UTG turned over Q5 and CO A8. Gah.

MH(WHB)G.

OK, the more I think about it, the more I like the CR. Of course, there's the chance I'm looking at an overpair from CO, but I can see why making the callers face 2 bets is the right way to go.

Re: Weak TP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Though this may havbe been influenced by the fact I folded the turn and after a K river UTG turned over Q5 and CO A8. Gah.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you made some good notes on both UTG and CO, 'cause you just got a lot of info on their play...

Re: Weak TP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Though this may havbe been influenced by the fact I folded the turn and after a K river UTG turned over Q5 and CO A8. Gah.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you made some good notes on both UTG and CO, 'cause you just got a lot of info on their play...

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true.... after this setback it turned into a very profitable stay at the table and UTG in particular now resides firmly on my buddy list.

Re: Weak TP?
 

Grunch:

Preflop: As played but with 4 others in the pot, need to hit a good draw to continue after the Flop.

Flop: Hit TPWK with 4 to follow, I check to the PFR with the intention to call down. If it is 2 to me I let it go. I compute 4 outs for us and if there are no raises back to me, we have just enough odds to peel.

Turn: With 4 other players still in and having 3 outs now getting 14:1 pot odds in a huge pot, conventional wisdom says we peel with just the right odds but we could hit our out and still be 2nd best. In real life I would fold but I bet many would say peel. I would get to this position in the first place though...hehe

Re: Weak TP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
there's the chance I'm looking at an overpair from CO

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there is that chance but against most opponents they will let you know by three betting the flop. At that point you can knowing you have to improve on the turn.

Re: Weak TP?
 

:grunch:

Pot is too big to fold so call it down. I can't see you winning UI though (and you may be drawing dead). CO may have an overpair and UTG may have hit his str8 (although he could be betting with a draw).

Re: Weak TP?
 

I don't think I'd donk this flop. The hand plays differently after you check...

Re: Weak TP?
 

Checking this flop is clearly better I think. You have good relative position to the preflop raiser so can check-raise to protect your hand.