$10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

Villain is 21/7/3 over 43 hands - hasn't done anything remarkable but is probably not completely terrible.


Poker Stars, $10 + $1 NL Hold'em Tournament, 15/30 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG+1: 1,570
MP1: 3,830
MP2: 1,535
CO: 2,205
BTN: 2,500
SB: 2,170
BB: 2,845
Hero (UTG): 1,490

Pre-Flop: (45) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to 100</font>, 5 folds, SB calls 85, Observer folds

Flop: (230) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (230) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets 330</font>, Hero calls 330

River: (890) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets 1,740 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: 890 Pot
SB mucked and WON 890 (+460 NET)


OK, I think I butchered this hand pretty nicely, but here's my thought process.

Up until recently, I would have continuation bet here about 99% of the time, but I've been trying to stop myself in situations where I can't be called by a worse hand. Am I realistically being called here by anything but a K or a 7? Any other hand has no more than a few outs against me, so is giving a free card really that bad?

After I check the flop, I'm setting up for him to bluff the turn - the overbet threw me a little, and at the time I thought this made the call even more correct, but I guess he could be trying to protect his K from thye flush draw?

I didn't see what I beat when he shoved the river.

So what is it? Always cbet? Fold turn?

Any advice appreciated.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

ezfold.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

Turn or river?

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

If his overbet is to pretect against flush, why is he pushing the river? His line doesnt really make sense here, so consider calling just cos I'm like that...

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

This could be easily a bluff. He knows u can't virtually never have a flush on the river so it's a perfect spot to push you of your hand. Especially if he's got the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I would call if I had a good day.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

You have to cbet here. It cal be folded if he raises and you can see a free turn and river if he calls. His action to your flop bet defines his hand much more than his turn and river bet do.
As played, you need to muck to his turn bet or, if you felt strongly about the size of his bet, push. Do not call.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

pf/flop fine. id probably just fold the turn.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

PBR i stole your icon... i'm sorry. but i am also pot committed. they should make a deck of cards w/ bad thing references... pills, needles, leaves, etc... if they can make an Iraq most wanted deck... they can make a deck like that. if anyone steals my idea and makes a million dollars on this, it will be copyrighted right here... and i'll expect royalties, cuz every college kid will buy your decks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BUT I DIGRESS.....
I don't see why you don't CBet this flop... your actions scream ace queen. fire out on the flop and make some money and find out where you're at. the guy's line is solid like mine. u'll find alot of the time from a SB call like this it's AX or a PP. KQ maybe... take a stab find out where u're at. if he check raises you it's KQ...

don't stack off on the turn either... at least make a min raise in delayed cbet fashion.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to cbet here. It cal be folded if he raises and you can see a free turn and river if he calls. His action to your flop bet defines his hand much more than his turn and river bet do.
As played, you need to muck to his turn bet or, if you felt strongly about the size of his bet, push. Do not call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, c-bet the flop. That way you can fold to a raise or get to river cheap.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

I might bring myself to call here. The overbets are totally throwing me off. You've played this hand really weakly and villain might think that a giant overbet could push you off of your hand. I think he bluffs often enough here to induce a call out of me.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

for everyone who wants to bet the flop, what is the purpose of the bet? do any worse hands call? do any better hands fold?

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
for everyone who wants to bet the flop, what is the purpose of the bet? do any worse hands call? do any better hands fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do not bet this flop you will face a bet on the turn 90% of the time and you will have no idea if he has a K or a 7 or just air. You are betting the flop to take the hand now, don't go overboard, bet 1/3 - 1/2 the pot and if called you will most likely be checked to on the turn so you can see a free river and reevaluate.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
for everyone who wants to bet the flop, what is the purpose of the bet? do any worse hands call? do any better hands fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the great things about continuation bets is that they make your life easier.

It is true that often a worse hand will fold, but hero won't feel comfortable calling a turn and river bet, so don't let your opponent bluff you off the best hand.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for everyone who wants to bet the flop, what is the purpose of the bet? do any worse hands call? do any better hands fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do not bet this flop you will face a bet on the turn 90% of the time and you will have no idea if he has a K or a 7 or just air. You are betting the flop to take the hand now, don't go overboard, bet 1/3 - 1/2 the pot and if called you will most likely be checked to on the turn so you can see a free river and reevaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, 1/2-60% of pot is good here.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

this hand was played well IMO.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

This hand was played perfectly imo. I would have played it the same way. Anyone that says c-bet, is just wrong. Check behind, call turn bet, and reevaluate river should be your standard play here.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

Make a cbet. If he folds you win, if he raises you're probably beat. I might push the turn if I have any reads.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

something that makes a hand easier to play doesn't mean that it's optimal.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
something that makes a hand easier to play doesn't mean that it's optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you check? You can win the pot right here which would be the best option right here. Checking gets you no info.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

theres absolutely no value in a c-bet. C-betting gets you no info either... if you get c/r, you have to fold, despite not knowing where you are. He easily could be calling with a worst pair, yet you have to shut down. You also get no value from the hands that are folding to a c-bet. I really don't see how this is even close. Checking is by far the best option.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

We might have the best hand...we may be way behind. Neither play is horribly wrong here. As either could work...

I don't get 2 arguments made here though.

1. C-betting gets you no info? What the heck are you talking about!! Now a world class player may take a C-Bet like this and jam it back in your face with air...but Phil Ivey isn't here. Most players r going to play what they have....so if I called with AQ preflop....a C-Bet might prompt me to pitch it in the muck. A raise means we are probably beat. A call means we're up against something. Now we have to start tinking abou possible hands...etc. The C-bet yields plenty of info.

2. It sounds like some are trying to wring out a huge profit on this hand. In a murky situation....there's nothing wrong taking down a small pot.

Again I like the check...bet on the turn because it masks the strength of our hand...and a weaker hand might call. Plus it keeps the pot small if were up against a K.

The C-bet gives us a chance to take it down now...and gives us info on the hand.

Either line will work.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

We're little behind against a reasonable sb range here. I think cbetting the flop is a must. If we can even make QQ and KQ here to fold, or TT,99 to call we gain huge value here. Cbet the flop, fold to a raise is good play here i think.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

DON'T BET FOR INFORMATION.

Make your open preflop smaller. I prefer 70 - 80 as standard at this level. I like the flop check. I would just fold the turn a lot. And if I called the turn bet - it would be because I'm willing to call for my stack on most rivers.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]


1. C-betting gets you no info? What the heck are you talking about!! Now a world class player may take a C-Bet like this and jam it back in your face with air...but Phil Ivey isn't here. Most players r going to play what they have....so if I called with AQ preflop....a C-Bet might prompt me to pitch it in the muck. A raise means we are probably beat. A call means we're up against something. Now we have to start tinking abou possible hands...etc. The C-bet yields plenty of info.



[/ QUOTE ]

maybe I am wrong here, but many people c/r here with a wide range of hands... but then again stars is nit central, so maybe they always do have it. Against any reasonable player, I never bet here, just want to get to showdown as cheap as possible.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

checking the flop gets us a street closer to showdown with a hand in which we have exactly that goal in mind. we can take no heat on the flop and we can induce bluffs from weaker hands, as well as go for value when the situation warrants on the turn and/or river. if you bet the flop you NEVER are going to bet the turn anyways, and if he bets youre probably going to fold, so what information did you yield from this? you never get 3 streets of value here, so the only information i gather is that youre spewing money.

Re: $10+1 Stars: JJ on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
checking the flop gets us a street closer to showdown with a hand in which we have exactly that goal in mind. we can take no heat on the flop and we can induce bluffs from weaker hands, as well as go for value when the situation warrants on the turn and/or river. if you bet the flop you NEVER are going to bet the turn anyways, and if he bets youre probably going to fold, so what information did you yield from this? you never get 3 streets of value here, so the only information i gather is that youre spewing money.

[/ QUOTE ]

ding! we have a winner