I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

Villain is 19/15/5 over 264 hands. I checked this flop to induce a bet from a lower PP, i talked to thac about this hand, he said bet/call flop. Turn is a pretty easy fold right?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($131.60)
SB ($60.95)
Hero ($98.50)
UTG ($85.50)
MP ($33.65)
CO ($113.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds, Button calls $10.

Flop: ($31.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($31.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $16.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $40</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $64.50

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

awful fold. you're line looks super weak.

also, bet the flop most of the time.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

so as played, are we calling turn and bombing safe river? as shoving turn would just fold out worse hands?

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

I like a bet on the flop, balance your range for when you 3b light from the blinds and miss.

Bet more on turn (24-26), makes it alot easier to give up if you get RR + you prob get called by any A after checking the flop.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

b/c $20 on the flop, and i shove turn

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

Bet call flop fo sho, a pair of aces is more or less the nuts in a 3bet pot. How are you gonna cbet with air if you never bet the effective third or fourth nuts here?


As played both shoving turn and calling and never folding the river (possibly donkbetting) are OK methinks.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

Flop is a really standard bet, you have to bet this flop with an ace to balance your range since you more than likely fire this flop a large % of the time with air.

As played I can't let it go, shove.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

bet/call flop and bet bigger on the turn. As played it just depends on what u think his 3bet calling range is against u in position, if u think it could include hands like aj, kq, kj or qj then I think u have to get it in because ur line is too weak. However, if u think its only pps, stuff like j10s, 109s or good aces then its unlikely hes value betting worse or turning a made hand like those into bluffs, so folding isnt bad.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

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Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

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Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

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ya i agree, it seems like ppl get this one idea stuck in their head like u need to 3bet a lot and then do it at every possible opportunity, against competent players 3betting a lot and auto c-betting is suicidal

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

i raise here. expecting a call... but TT or perhaps 77 are the only hands we lose to that i would not be surprised to see..

maybe A10.. but he still bets flop imo. get it in.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

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Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

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ya i agree, it seems like ppl get this one idea stuck in their head like u need to 3bet a lot and then do it at every possible opportunity, against competent players 3betting a lot and auto c-betting is suicidal

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3betting a lot and then not c-betting is spewing

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

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How is shoving good? Whats he calling our shove with that we are ahead of? If hes value raising this turn we are dead, and if he was bluffing isnt he now just folding?

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

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How is shoving good? Whats he calling our shove with that we are ahead of? If hes value raising this turn we are dead, and if he was bluffing isnt he now just folding?

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he probably isn't folding any combo draw

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

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why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

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he probably isn't folding any combo draw

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what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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20-23 on flop

shove turn as played

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How is shoving good? Whats he calling our shove with that we are ahead of? If hes value raising this turn we are dead, and if he was bluffing isnt he now just folding?

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Yeah I changed my mind, and hand that is calling a turn shove that we beat is also calling a river donkbet, as well as a little more of his range (he might be raising KK,QQ here since us not cbetting is a little odd for an ace). I call turn, but I never get to this spot in the first place.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

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why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

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he probably isn't folding any combo draw

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what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

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Kinda like his line with AJ, A9. The raise is small enough that he could get value out of a lot of hero's range. Also the combo draw comment is a little silly, that's a tiny tiny fraction of his range.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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always cbet a pf 3bet...(at least most of the time)...

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Nope. I love TAGs like you, you call their 3bet with ATC preflop and shove if you flop 4 outs or better. Easy $$$.

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You 3-bet to 12BB. Pot of ~25BB. C-BET for about 15BB. 27BB invested. If caller is shoving anytime he hits anything and folding otherwise, then it's actually easy money for the 3-bettor. The caller misses the flop completely about 60% of the time, and the 40% of the time he shoves - villain is the one with a generally easy decision - only having to call the extra 73BB a fraction of the time to show a healthy overall profit.

I agree cbetting 100% of flops is exploitable - but not nearly as easily/profitably as you described.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

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why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

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he probably isn't folding any combo draw

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what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

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Kinda like his line with AJ, A9. The raise is small enough that he could get value out of a lot of hero's range

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ok, but even so, how likely are AJ or A9? Both from a combination standpoint give 2 of the aces are out, and also from a he called our 3 bet standpoint. And if AJ A9 are likely, so is AT. And even if he is playing those hands that way, does it make up enough of his range for the shove (hes gotta call the shove with AJ or A9 as well too) to be +EV? (and not only be +EV, but a higher EV than a different line)

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

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why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

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he probably isn't folding any combo draw

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what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

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Kinda like his line with AJ, A9. The raise is small enough that he could get value out of a lot of hero's range. Also the combo draw comment is a little silly, that's a tiny tiny fraction of his range.

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i think QJss, QKss, JTss, KJss, 9Tss are in his range, we 3bet PF but it wasn't massive.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

early, those hands fold some % of the time and bet the flop with the fd some % of the time, both of which are pretty healthy percentages. It makes that part of his range pretty small imo. It seems a little odd that he wouldn't semibluff the flop but he's happily semibluff-raising the turn when he picks up 4 more outs?

Alobar, I wasn't defending the turn shove, I just think that discounting AJ,A9 from his range here is incorrect.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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imo they call here with spades... AJ maybe A9..

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why would he raise AJ or A9 tho? And how likely are spades given the ace is on the board?

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he probably isn't folding any combo draw

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what combo draw is he holding? JTss makes up enough of his range, that we are excited to shove here?

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Kinda like his line with AJ, A9. The raise is small enough that he could get value out of a lot of hero's range. Also the combo draw comment is a little silly, that's a tiny tiny fraction of his range.

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i think QJss, QKss, JTss, KJss, 9Tss are in his range, we 3bet PF but it wasn't massive.

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Thats only 5 combos, there are more than that many combos of TT and 77. And lets not forget that those combo draws also have 30% equity against us. Even if you have him calling with AJ and A9, we have less than 50% equity....so hes gotta call this shove with like JJ before its a good play

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

this hand just mkaes me go "arrrggghhh"

Alobar has made me less inclined to shove but also less confident that we have the best hand.

if we just call here.. i assume we check the river to him.

if the river blanks.. is this a c/c? i couldn't c/f on a blank river here for a 2/3 PSB here which is what it will be if he shoves..

what is the right way to go then?

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

even if you think his calling range is A9+, 22/77/TT and sets we have 42% equity..and that's assuming he has those parts of his range equally, which is obv not the case..plus the times he folds draws/bluffs, it's pretty obvious that shoving is +EV

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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even if you think his calling range is A9+, 22/77/TT and sets we have 42% equity..and that's assuming he has those parts of his range equally, which is obv not the case..plus the times he folds draws/bluffs, it's pretty obvious that shoving is +EV

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I can't see how it is. He's never folding his draws, hes getting like 3.5:1 on his money. What he is doing is folding all his bluffs (and even some of his non bluffs....im not calling A9 there, even getting 3.5:1), which leaves his calling range well ahead of us. So unless he decides to start calling with JJ or 99 or whatever, its -EV

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

your saying that if he calls, we'll have the worst hand more often than not (very debatable but not what i'm talking about) -- i'm saying it's +EV because i think he's bluffing/has worse often enough to make a shove profitable, rather than having better..

if you'd like to discuss a better way to extract money from bluffs (call, c/c river) then do it, but shoving here is nowhere close to -EV imo

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

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your saying that if he calls, we'll have the worst hand more often than not (very debatable but not what i'm talking about) -- i'm saying it's +EV because i think he's bluffing/has worse often enough to make a shove profitable, rather than having better..

if you'd like to discuss a better way to extract money from bluffs (call, c/c river) then do it, but shoving here is nowhere close to -EV imo

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ok, you're right. Shoving is still going to be a profitable play (assuming he is raising here often enough as a blufff or on a draw). Im looking at it wrong and confusing it in my head with not shoving being a more profitable play. But that doesn't make shoving -EV.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

call turn, check/decide river

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

Tank, call turn, check call river.

Or just shove turn, whatever.

Anything but folding works

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

What's the postflop plan after you 3bet with you AQs it seems like you played it as a pure steal/autoraise due to your hand and/or did not really have a plan for postflop. I think that's the main issue here. Try sitting down and imagining a bunch of 3bet pot scenarios and how they play out on certain flops. I think that helped my game quite a bit.

I don't agree with the "automatic cbet to balance your range" statements. Nothing should be automatic, especially not in 3bet pots. A check on the flop will often get more money out of the 99-QQish kinds of hands or hands that completely missed that might call PF but this is really villain dependant.

Some villains will fold an underpair to the A a high percentage of the time when you cbet but get more agressive after you checked because "you cannot have the Ace often". Vs these villains a check is often good to maximize equitv vs their range.

And vs some villains I don't cbet A high flops in 3bet pots with air either, be it because they call with a wider range of Aces PF IP or because they like to bluffshove any A high flop etc.

p.s.: If you are comfortable with playing OOP you might experiment with calling AQs there sometimes because villain will have weak aces that you crush there often.

Re: I suck w/ AQ in 3b pots
 

he'd have to be pretty retarded to bluff the river if you call