Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Villain is 24/20/2
Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $46.20
UTG+1: $44.30
CO: $118.50
Hero: $51.90
SB: $37.95
BB: $50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $1.5</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($5.25, 3 players)
UTG+1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($11.25, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $2.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $11.5</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($36.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">CO is all-in $103.5</font>,

As for the no threebet pf. I had just three bet last hand I wasn't about to do it right away.

Now is there any other hand that takes this line? And no don't say QJ.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

I never 3 bet pf here especially against an ep raise. Flop I bet about 4 and turn Im getting it in over that raise. By that point due to the bigger flop bet the pot is big enough to make a shove about a psb.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Now is there any other hand that takes this line? And no don't say QJ.

well it does

and yes you can fold, but only if you hate money

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Raise at least 4 on the flop. I also re-raise CO's raise of the turn and try to get it all in there.
Call the river.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Of course I called the river. But i knew he had a set. I even said it in chat. THERE IS NO HAND THAT TAKES THIS LINE THAT ISNT A SET. So why do I call. I want to hear REAL reasons.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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Raise at least 4 on the flop. I also re-raise CO's raise of the turn and try to get it all in there.
Call the river.

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Bet four? It was checked to me.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

I never 3bet here either.


Flop bet should be bigger. Call the river shove quickly. He could have a bunch of 2 pair hands. You won't win every time but you're easily winning more than 33%.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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Of course I called the river. But i knew he had a set. I even said it in chat. THERE IS NO HAND THAT TAKES THIS LINE THAT ISNT A SET. So why do I call. I want to hear REAL reasons.

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if losing a buyin to a cooler gets you this upset id suggest moving down to where the $ wouldnt mean as much

bet more on the flop

no you arent folding here, the people that do are usually the w/t and result-oriented ones

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

I'd bet more on the flop, $4 sounds about right. Shove the turn

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Im not upset. I just really think I could have folded there.
Isn't poker about going with your read?
my chat

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1721619

I mean I put him on set. So why should I call?

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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Raise at least 4 on the flop. I also re-raise CO's raise of the turn and try to get it all in there.
Call the river.

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Bet four? It was checked to me.

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Yeah, that's what I meant. You call because he does this with QK or QJ or another 2 pair. Or maybe because it's 100 bb's, and he could be donking around with anything. You call because it's 50 NL and you have bottom set. You call because you have good odds. Mostly, you call because you are ahead most of the time. Doubt he puts you on a set anyway, given your flat turn call.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Because a set isnt the only hand he can have here. You dont learn to practice hand reading by putting villain on one hand, you do it by putting him on a range of hands. Two pair makes up a good chunk of his range just like sets and you have odds to call as played. With that said, Im still betting flop bigger and content to get it in on the turn. Set over set happens so rarely that you honestly cant play scared like that.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

I understand that. What do you put his range at?

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not upset. I just really think I could have folded there.
Isn't poker about going with your read?
my chat

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1721619

I mean I put him on set. So why should I call?

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Sometimes going with a real good read is fine.

That being said, a lot of players will show up with JQ here too.

The fact of the matter is the guy overbet the river with like the 6th nuts. If he's willing to open push the 6th nuts... would he do the same with the 7th, 8th or 10th best hand?

Sometimes you call knowing you LIKELY lost but will win enough times that you have to call. I think a set is a hand that you have to call for less then 100bb quite often unless you have bottom set on this board:

10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

a set of 10s here isn't worth much....

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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Im not upset. I just really think I could have folded there.
Isn't poker about going with your read?
my chat

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1721619

I mean I put him on set. So why should I call?

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Seriously.. why should you call? If there's anything that makes my blood boil it's people who will type their "read" in chat before they make a big call. One time I had a set and made a big river bet after the turn checked through and had to listen to some guy babble about "I think you flopped a set on me" and let his time bank go down and wound up calling anyway, then I'm supposed to laud him for a great read. Yeah GREAT READ except you payed me off anyway.

If you're so sure you're beat then FOLD. It's that simple.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Two pair or a very overplayed AQ. Both of which you will see often enough especially since it seems like villain is fairly active with those stats.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

To be fair I typed it and called instantly

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not upset. I just really think I could have folded there.
Isn't poker about going with your read?
my chat

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1721619

I mean I put him on set. So why should I call?

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Nobody forces you to call here. So if you feel you should fold here, do it. But if you start doing it here, you are probably folding waaaaayyyy too much in other spots.

Do you fold KK if a guy has folded 10 times in a row and raises for the first time? Of course not (I hope). Although he may have AA he could have lots of other hands. You are way ahead of his range and want to build a pot. That doesn't mean you won't lose sometimes.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

The thing is this doesnt happen often enough for you to consider folding sets. If you can consistently narrow his range two only 2 other possible hands your a much better hand reader than the majority of players.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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To be fair I typed it and called instantly

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Your memory is probably very asymmetric when it comes down to remembering these things. When you fear a higher set and he has it you will remember it and say "I thought so". On the other hand you forget the 25 other times when you have think the same and he doesn't have it.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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But if you start doing it here, you are probably folding waaaaayyyy too much in other spots.


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Of course I don't make a habit of folding sets. In fact I don't believe I have ever folded a set on a dry board in my life. So why start now? well I didn't I called.

I find myself in similar situations about once a session.
I will be put into a situation where I know I am probably way behind but I have to call because I beat his alleged "range". However a players range is only as wide or as narrow as you make it. How do you make it? By observing the player and remembering how he plays hands so that you can use the information to make better decisions in the future.

So if my read tells me that a certain player would bet a top pair hand when checked to should I not listen to it? If he checks the flop when checked to I should eliminate top pair from his range. Should I not? So when the turn brings the bricky J and all of a sudden wakes up and raises the PFRer The only hand I can put him on is a set. So this is my read.

In poker we are constantly going by our reads. It is what makes us money. So why should I all of a sudden completely disregard my read and make a call. Because I have a set? I know the only reason I called is because I know that it is stupid to fold a set on a dry board. And in most cases I believe it is. However I do think that it HAS To be so cut and dry I think it should at least be open for discussion. I don't believe it always has to be " YOU HAVE A SET, YOU HAVE TO GO BROKE 100% OF THE TIME THERE."

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

you know what you start folding sets when you have a bad feeling and I will get as much money in with mine and we will see how has better results over the long run.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

Yeah but these situations come up about once every 50k hands so folding this every time would not be a "huge" mistake.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

This is a pretty easy fold for me, because its a polarised line - nuts or nothing - and I dont see what draw he can be bluffing at on the turn, unless KT or T9 or something got really insane. Even so, his line reeks of value, theres no way in hell a 24/20 would take this line with 2pr.

Having said that, you misplayed the turn, you should shove or fold. Because we can legitimately put the villain on a much wider turn range we can shove profitably which might sound weird given that I am advocating a river fold, but that's the difference between getting your money in good and getting your money in bad.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

wtf is up with your bet sizing. flop bet sizing is bad.

raise turn. call river.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

I will concede that the flop sizing was bad. I just really didn't think they had anything. That why I bet so small. The orignal pre flop raiser was about a 40/9/3 so If he had anything he would have bet the flop. And as I have said 100x here I believed the villain would bet any top pair hand when checked to.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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This is a pretty easy fold for me, because its a polarised line - nuts or nothing - and I dont see what draw he can be bluffing at on the turn, unless KT or T9 or something got really insane. Even so, his line reeks of value, theres no way in hell a 24/20 would take this line with 2pr.


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At least ONE person agrees that a fold is possible and not a HUGE mistake.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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This is a pretty easy fold for me, because its a polarised line - nuts or nothing - and I dont see what draw he can be bluffing at on the turn, unless KT or T9 or something got really insane. Even so, his line reeks of value, theres no way in hell a 24/20 would take this line with 2pr.


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At least ONE person agrees that a fold is possible and not a HUGE mistake.

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Put it this way, you should always be planning to get your stack in with a set for 100bb, no exceptions ever. Set over set is always a cooler that you're not going to get away from. The only reason why this river is a fold is because you misplayed the flop and the turn, so although you could have saved yourself some money on the river here that does NOT mean that this line is anywhere near good, nor does it mean that you should ever be considering folding a set for 100bb.

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

I think what ama is saying is that you should have lost your money on the turn not the river...

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

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This is a pretty easy fold for me, because its a polarised line - nuts or nothing - and I dont see what draw he can be bluffing at on the turn, unless KT or T9 or something got really insane. Even so, his line reeks of value, theres no way in hell a 24/20 would take this line with 2pr.


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At least ONE person agrees that a fold is possible and not a HUGE mistake.

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Put it this way, you should always be planning to get your stack in with a set for 100bb, no exceptions ever. Set over set is always a cooler that you're not going to get away from. The only reason why this river is a fold is because you misplayed the flop and the turn, so although you could have saved yourself some money on the river here that does NOT mean that this line is anywhere near good, nor does it mean that you should ever be considering folding a set for 100bb.

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Dually noted

Re: Am I allowed to fold a set on a dry board at 50 nl? PLEAAASE
 

I know it's not a tournament. But I remember Dan Harrington mentioning set-over-set scenarios on dry boards. Simply put he felt you should get your money in and if it is another set, it's a cooler and the tournament simply wasn't meant to be yours. Bummer, but awesome read.