.10/.20 pstars
 

Ill start of by saying I have no specific issue with this hand other then I am trying to dig into specific aspects of my game. I would appreciate it if some people could take the time and analyze my play through the entire hand strictly from clean limit poker stand point.

Im currently building a bankroll on pokerstars from $10 (up to $50 currently) which is going well but the real objective is that my knowledge of the game will increase as the limits do. Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time

I had just sat at the table a few hands before so I have no reads to offer.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP folds, Button calls.

River: (9.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

there will be a lot of posts after mine telling you what to do. this is what you want to hear.

but if you want to get better, you need to think about and answer these questions:

why did you donk the flop?

why did you check the river?

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

I would c/r this flop u have a NFD &amp; GS with 1 over that may still be live (the T prolly should be discounted due to anyone holding a 7). Then lead turn.

As played u need to bet that river.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

I believe you missed a value bet on the river there. Any reason for checking?

Flop: Seems like UTG have UI overs. Button could be raising TP or on a draw for a "free" card. I dont mind donking but c/r might be better.

Turn: You donk and he calls. Could still be a draw or TP calling down. If you're against an aggresive opponent you could go for a c/r here. Very read dependent (got any?).

River: As already mentioned, bet here. You have no reason to think a K changes anything. Bet for value

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

Preflop is fine.

I lead this flop. Your objective on the flop is to get as many bets in as possible. You have excellent equity here. When the button raises I think I would three bet. One or both of those callers will call two more bets here sometimes and that is good for you.

Once you get to the turn I don't mind donking into the flop raiser when the ace hits.

On the river you have no reason to suspect that you are behind and no reason to think the button will bet for you. You must value bet this river. If you get raised by the button because he hit two pair with a hand like K9 then you lose an extra bet, but more often you will get paid off by a worse hand.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

quick follow up question.. if someone could quickly explain what was wrong with betting out on the flop.. besides not having hit anything I knew I had a bunch of outs and I will admit sometimes I get in love with building up pots on flush draws although I do know how to fold them.

I checked the river for a few reasons, most of which probably arent smart. One was I had a feeling I was beat, so I could just call the bet.. and it didnt occur to me to 3 bet the raise.

Keep the comments/criticism coming

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

[ QUOTE ]
quick follow up question.. if someone could quickly explain what was wrong with betting out on the flop.. besides not having hit anything i knew I had a bunch of outs and I will admit sometimes I get in love with flush draws although I do know how to fold them

[/ QUOTE ]
Mainly due to your relative position to the PF raiser. Notice how if UTG bets &amp; everyone calls u r last to act &amp; u can trap the whole field for an extra bet. The reason you want to trap the field is because you have a very strong draw.

Now if you bet &amp; UTG raises he may fold out the field leaving it HU, you want those extra players in there providing money if/when u hit ur draw.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

Grunch:

Preflop: As played

Flop: I think I would check to the PFR and raise given the chance since I figure we have 12 clean outs...9 for FD, 2 for SB and 1 for overcard pair of A

Turn: I bet and call down if raised and bet river if just called.

River: Check...I guess Button may have a busted SD but could have something like K9 or 8 or 6 sooted so Button folds hand I can beat and raise with ones that beat me.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

[ QUOTE ]

I checked the river for a few reasons, most of which probably arent smart. One was I had a feeling I was beat, so I could just call the bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
So if u were willing to call 1 bet why not bet that yourself because he will call with all his pairs that you do beat. Also I can't see why u would think you were beat either, did you put him on KK/K9/K8/K6?

FWIW the only reason to check the river is if u put him on a draw &amp; u think he may try to bluff on the river with his busted draw (this is not a good spot for that btw), or you expect him to fold if u bet but will bet if checked to. However since you played a stop n go there is very little chance of this happening unless your opponent is completely stupid.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

welcome

[ QUOTE ]
if someone could quickly explain what was wrong with betting out on the flop.. besides not having hit anything

[/ QUOTE ]

the first part has already been covered so Ill comment on the bolded part. this is rather negative thinking. Whilst you only have Ace High this is a great flop for you in a multiway pot. When you flop alot of outs one of your objectives is to get as many of your opponents to put as any bets into the pot. I hope you see why.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

I wouldn't donk the flop. I wouldn't check the river.

The rest looks good. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

Check/raising to "trap the field for an extra bet" only works when UTG continuation bets (not always), one or more players call (not raise) that bet (not always), and UTG is then nice enough not to 3bet our check/raise (also not always). While going for the flop c/r is probably the best play here, betting out is not terrible either--especially if we get the chance to 3bet, and even more especially if UTG raises, one or both players call 2, and then we get to 3bet. If nothing else, you should be varying your play from time to time to avoid predictability (not that a lot of your opponents are paying that much attention in these games).

At higher stakes I could see value checking the river to induce a bluff out of a 7 or a lower busted flush draw, but at .10/.20 I think you gain much more value by betting &amp; getting calls from worse hands.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

I would love to know that UTG had when he folded to the raise on the flop.
I think that you played the hand fine until the river. I would also donk the flop in the hope that UTG might raise with JJ-KK and clean up my ace outs against the two pre-flop cold callers if either of them has AJ or AQ. Why didn't you bet the river?

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

A number of people have suggested checking the flop with a view to check raising here. I would question this. With four people having put in two bets pre-flop, the pot is already large. We should therefore take the line that maximises our winning chances. That means trying to ensure that our ace outs are clean if the diamond flush does not materialise. The best chance of this happening is to donk the flop in the hope that UTG raises and knocks out AJ, AQ or even AK. A check raise (assuming that UTG bets) will not get anyone to fold. If the donk gets raised and there are callers, by all means 3 bet for value.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

GRUNCH:

I don't mind donking the flop. It's a fairly co-ordinated board and you can't be sure that UTG will c-bet if he has overcards.

Turn bet is good, but bet the river. There's no reason to think Button has a better A, and in the absence of information that he will bluff a busted draw, it's better to value-bet.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

doug (may i call you doug? i guess doug isn't a very scottish-sounding name. have you ever seen the cartoon "doug"? i'm not sure if they have nickelodeon across the pond, but doug is pretty cool. i liked skeeter better, though; skeeter is the kind of friend you could trade handjobs with.),

if we bet and utg raises, he always has a better hand than us. getting hu with a better hand is rarely what you want. it's *really* not what you want when you have a draw to the nuts. we want to get as much money as possible into this pot. c/r the field is far and away the best way to do this.

(harv's points are interesting about b/3b. but hey harv, how about c/r/cap! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

[ QUOTE ]
doug (may i call you doug? i guess doug isn't a very scottish-sounding name. have you ever seen the cartoon "doug"? i'm not sure if they have nickelodeon across the pond, but doug is pretty cool. i liked skeeter better, though; skeeter is the kind of friend you could trade handjobs with.),

if we bet and utg raises, he always has a better hand than us. getting hu with a better hand is rarely what you want. it's *really* not what you want when you have a draw to the nuts. we want to get as much money as possible into this pot. c/r the field is far and away the best way to do this.

(harv's points are interesting about b/3b. but hey harv, how about c/r/cap! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]


Please call me Doug. I got my user name and my posting name mixed up when I registered and I don't know it there is anything I can do to change it!

I don't mind being HU with a better hand when I have a good chance of outdrawing it. If UTG has JJ, QQ or KK, I have eleven outs. If he raises AK, my ten gives three extra outs if his hand doesn't improve. I just feel that with eight SBs in the pot already, I want to maximise my chances of winning as opposed to increasing the number of bets in the pot. If I can get someone with AJ or better to fold , I am happy. Betting out also has the advantage of ensuring that the hand is not checked round on the flop, which I would hate to see happen. If I am raised, I am perfectly happy to re-raise if at least one other player stays in. If the pot had not been raised before the flop, I would prefer the attempted check raise line however.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

[ QUOTE ]
if we bet and utg raises, he always has a better hand than us. getting hu with a better hand is rarely what you want. it's *really* not what you want when you have a draw to the nuts. we want to get as much money as possible into this pot. c/r the field is far and away the best way to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 9d 8h 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.121% 46.67% 00.45% 462 4.50 { AdTd }
Hand 1: 52.879% 52.42% 00.45% 519 4.50 { AcAs }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 9d 8h 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.778% 52.32% 00.45% 518 4.50 { AdTd }
Hand 1: 47.222% 46.77% 00.45% 463 4.50 { KdKh }

Never underestimate the value of a flopped 4-flush + gutshot hand. And never assume that just because your opponent has the best hand now, you're behind. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Really, we're debating nothing--I think we both agree that our goal is to get as many bets as humanly possible into this pot on the flop. C/r sometimes does that, bet/3bet sometimes does it better, and as is usually the case I think a lot depends on our opponents. On .10/.20 I doubt it really matters which avenue we choose--people are going to peel for 2 bets as easily as 1 pretty often, with anything from 1 pair to a gutshot to a runner runner FD.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

grunching...

very favourable flop for you. nut flush draw with 2 overs, and a gutshot. I might try to cap the flop. but check raising is better you you trap a lot of them for 1 more bet. If you bet, and UTG raise, you might be chasing away those acting behind.

You should have bet the river. Can't miss this value bet! Button totally looks like he's trying for a free card on the turn by raising on the flop.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

[ QUOTE ]

I lead this flop. Your objective on the flop is to get as many bets in as possible. You have excellent equity here. When the button raises I think I would three bet. One or both of those callers will call two more bets here sometimes and that is good for you.



[/ QUOTE ]

Since the preflop raiser was to your immediate left, wouldn't it be better to check, hope he bets and everybody else calls and then check raising trapping the guys in between. If you lead out and UTG was to raise, then the others would probably fold.

Doc

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

My feeling was with all those people calling a preflop raise there are going to be a lot of people with straightD+overs or pair+StraightD and they will call two bets anyway. A lot of player will call two bets here with just AQ/AK. You are right though, that I end up looking foolish if I bet the flop and then prelop raiser pops it and everyone folds back to me.

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

* grunch *

Preflop I would twitch toward the Raise button and then click Call.

Flop: I like the line. With the NFD and gutshot you want bets in the pot without scaring off weaker draws.

Turn: That top pair doesn't feel very strong. Were you planning a bet/fold line or bet/call? I guess I would bet/call here but I'd be tempted to c/c.

[Edit]

So I'm barely making the value bet on the turn and not even commenting on the lack of a value bet on the river. Shows where my head is these days...

Re: .10/.20 pstars
 

Alright that was some good stuff. Really helped me tackle some situations from different angles. Im transitioning over from NL and its been about 6 weeks of studying and playing to get used to this new way of thinking about the "same" game Ive been playing.

For what its worth he mucked J7 os and I was good