Do downswings get easier?
 

Each time I hit a downswing I go through the same thoughts and end up starting to play badly. When things are going my way I think I can play, I think I've finally worked out what was going wrong and that a downswing can't happen again, but then it hits and I'm back with all the negative thoughts.

I don't play a load of hands, normally around 20k a month, and that's been since August. I've gone through probably 4 or 5 downswings of 6-8bi but each time it's just so frustrating, seeing all that hard earned just disappear away. Now I'm at 100nl the money actually means something too, I'm -$500 in the last 500 hands and it just plain sucks. It always seems to disappear quickly too, like this time 5bi in 500 hands, is this normal?

Back to my question, does this get easier with time or does it always totally suck? Do you guys even consider -5bi a downswing? Is that just a bad day?

Man I sound like such a whiny [censored], sorry [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] It's just that until you've been through it loads of times you question everything about your game without knowing how much of it is standard.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

Downswings will always suck, its just that you'll define it differently over time....it used to be losing 1 or 2 buyins sucked, now its 6-8...etc.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

Downswings happen to all poker players. There is nothing you can do about catching a few coolers but if you realize that you are playing bad you need to get up and go do something good/positive. If it seems like "they" always have it, try changing tables...Put your opponents on a range of hands, narrow it to the best of your abilities and then decide which action is the most +ev.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

Thanks. To be fair I don't think I played all that badly today, it was just one of those days where every hand you get involved in turns out 2nd best. I was finishing off for the session because I was a bit wound up and flopped a set of aces on my final hand, the frustration made me slowplay them to the turn, which of course gave villian a straight with QJ and I stacked off pretty much knowing I was beaten. This is the kind of bad play I'm talking about when things aren't going right and because things aren't going well the free card is always the card they need. So frustrating but like you said they can't be avoided and just need to get through them.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

Swongs are one thing. They get easier. If it seems like they get worse right after you move up, it can be good to move back down for a while and build a bigger roll before moving back up so you're not so upset about downswings. You also may need to move back down and study a little more if you're struggling at 100nl. Nothing wrong with that, everyone hits levels where their previous play isn't quite cutting it anymore.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

The more you play the more you accept it. It still hurts but you know they are going to happen over and over. As long as you avoid tilting and are a winning player you get through these. Frustrating as hell though.

Good luck

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

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I've gone through probably 4 or 5 downswings of 6-8bi but each time it's just so frustrating, seeing all that hard earned just disappear away.

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As others have mentioned, if you have a good mentality then the threshold for when a downswing bothers you should increase over time. Since it sounds like you're stuck as coping with 6-8bi downswings, maybe it would help to change your mentality a little.

The bolded part was mostly what caught my attention, since many players fall into this line of thinking. You might have a great day of playing, end up many buy-ins, and have a winrate of like 20 BB/100h. Even though you realize you ran well, it's easy to think "Nice, I'm a good player and I won, so I deserved it... I EARNED that money!" But the reality is, you really only earned the 5 BB/100h or whatever your abilities earn you. The extra 15 BB/100h you basically luckboxed by running good. So besides just realizing that variance evens out, try to put the winning days in perspective. "I made $1000 today, but I really only earned $150..."

Hope this helps

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

That's a really good way to think about it.

I think it's most annoying at the moment also because I don't think I've proved myself to be a solid winner yet, so whenever you lose a few hands it makes you doubt yourself. I'm sure that after another 50k hands or whatever this will have less of an affect.

Also important is bankroll, I've got a pretty decent bankroll of just over 30bi now even after dropping 5 this week. My last downswong dropped me to about 22bi so I was kind of looking over my shoulder which didn't help. Hopefully I'll get the roll up to 40-50bi and then these swongs should matter less again.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

read up on Buddhism. It has helped my mental state during downswings AND upswings. I find that when I dont read a couple pages of a specific buddhist book a night, I tend to get careless in my game and end up playing too much on tilt whether im running cold or hot.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

I'm a BIG proponent of being OVER rolled for poker. Downswings lead to tilt....and the biggest factor in tilting is how much the $ hurts when you lose it. The more over-rolled, the less the $ hurts, the less tilt.
GL

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

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I'm a BIG proponent of being OVER rolled for poker. Downswings lead to tilt....and the biggest factor in tilting is how much the $ hurts when you lose it. The more over-rolled, the less the $ hurts, the less tilt.
GL

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Bingo.

It's funny how swings work on people. I routinely play 30-70 hour long sessions of live poker. So I am used to taking +50/-50BB swings within the course of just one session. Last spring I was playing every weekend and have had +250BB/-150BB swings in different sessions.

The ups are still awesome and the downs still suck but understanding that it's all the same and that it averages out over time for the winning player makes things easier.

I agree with other posters that being overrolled makes swings seem inconsequential. I also agree that the important thing to remember is long term and not be caught up with the bad times nor the good times.

Good luck.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

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Each time I hit a downswing I go through the same thoughts and end up starting to play badly.

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this is great. you can accept responsibility for your actions. continue to analyze your play and be honest with yourself. cards will turn around, bad play doesnt go away by itself. you need to be humble at the table and most folks rarely are. gl. youll be fine. -mj

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

The best way to understand this problem is to read Mason Malmuth's "Gambling Theory and Other Topics." Essentially, it explains that luck can be measured and evens out in the long run. That being the case, Malmuth goes on to explain an individual player will do if he is based upon his skill level.

A poor player can expect to lose in the long run, a good player can expect to win; the only caveat is that your expectation doesn't happen immediately. Great players can possibily have losing streaks lasting up to two years, and poor players can possbily a winning streak lasting up to 1000 hours. Once I learned that, I had to realize that I must constantly work on improving my game so that I possess a skill level to hold my own in any game. I also had to maintain an adequate bankroll to withstand the fluctuations of the downswings. I also had be flexible enough to move down in levels from time if I wanted to stay in the game for the long run, in other words, never go broke.

Along the way, I just realized that downswings are just part of being a poker player. Now it doesn't matter if I win or lose. Don't get me wrong, I love to have winning seesions, its when I have a losing session, I just shrug it off and don't dwell on the loss. I think of whether or not I played well, what mistakes I made and why it was a mistake; what mistakes my opponents made, if they outplayed me or if they got lucky. I then may go have a nice dinner with my wife, go shopping, go to the gym, whatever, it really makes no difference in the long run, because I am adequately bankrolled for my next session, that loss made no difference to my lifestyle or the ability to return for the next session. Also along the way, I actually bought some nice things with my winnings, like a condo, a big flat screen TV, paid for several vacations, some gifts for my wife, even when I was in a downswing. So I can appreciate the long hours I logged in either on line or in the casino. I just know that even though I enjoy poker and may lose from time to time, it ill not affect the quality of my play, even more, the quality of my life.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

great players losing 2 years?????????? LOOOOL. I dont think so, unless you play live poker where you play 3 hands per hour in super tough competition.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

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great players losing 2 years?????????? LOOOOL. I dont think so, unless you play live poker where you play 3 hands per hour in super tough competition.

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Read the book, if you studied math, its all laid out for you.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

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great players losing 2 years?????????? LOOOOL. I dont think so, unless you play live poker where you play 3 hands per hour in super tough competition.

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Read the book, if you studied math, its all laid out for you.

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id rather not get teaspoonfed by some book.. All these guys claiming 'omg i broke even for 100k hands, sick variance' are just doing it wrong. So unless 3 hands per hour in tough live game 2 years breaking even is impossible for a great player.

Re: Do downswings get easier?
 

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great players losing 2 years?????????? LOOOOL. I dont think so, unless you play live poker where you play 3 hands per hour in super tough competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the book, if you studied math, its all laid out for you.

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id rather not get teaspoonfed by some book.. All these guys claiming 'omg i broke even for 100k hands, sick variance' are just doing it wrong. So unless 3 hands per hour in tough live game 2 years breaking even is impossible for a great player.

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Like I say, buy the book, it is a brilliant work which allowed me to reconcile playing poker with the inevitable losses that occur. I also was able to relate this to the stock market, investing, and the events that happen in my life.

I admit, the math is not for everybody, but I got through it referring back to my college and grad school statistics books. It helped me produce a ton of money in poker and the stock market, as well as deal with difficult people and difficult situations, when at points I was seriously considering throwing in the towel.

All of that from a gambling theory book.