Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

Villain is solid 22/16/2 over 400mined hands, joined the table 3 orbits ago and had 3bet villain last orbit when he attempted to steal my blinds.

Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25/$0.50BB (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

BB ($27.75)
MP3 ($83.94)
CO ($52.25)
Button ($49.25)
SB ($49.50) (Hero)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to 2.0</font>, Button calls $2.00, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to 8.0</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $6.25,

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ( $19 )
hero?

DO I c/f? The only hands i see in his calling range that missed this flop are aq/qq and mayb TT. Aq/qq is unlikely as I have the other queen...

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

I'm betting like 10 here. Shutting down if called. And folding to a raise.

Maybe this is a leak?

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

you are ahead here like always if your read is correct.

i think a crai is good, but so is bet/call.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

If you check you're getting fired at regardless, Bet ~15 and cry if he reraises.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

I'm c-betting $12 here and giving up if called, unless i had a solid read and the turn totally bricked.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

He calls a raise from the button then calls a 3bet from the blinds. His range really looks like AQ or maybe 88-TT. I don't see him just flat calling two raises w/AJ or AK... basically I think you have the best hand here more often than not and I cbet. The only hand I see raising you here is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I just don't see how he has AK/AA/KK/JJ/AJ.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

I agree with Milky on the range part and also with everyone else on c-betting the board. I shut down if called/raised though.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

everyone folding tough if cbet gets reraised?

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

W/o reads if I get reraised I'm folding there.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

Ummm... call me a lagtard, but I'd crai

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

I'd continue bet this flop, preferably about 2/3 pot size, his cold calling once and then cold calling a reraise is very very weak and should be pounced upon, if he happens to call, try to get a cheap showdown by checking it down, if he bets anywhere around 1/2 pot later in the hand, I'd insta fold it.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

check, call / float turn

or

cbet / shut down if called or raised

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Ummm... call me a lagtard, but I'd crai

[/ QUOTE ]
easy crai here imo

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

Mh crai sounds interesting(im never gonna do it obviously since for me he would have jj here every single time), why exactly go for a crai?

I understand his betting range&gt;calling range when checked too, but does he really have a worse hand than us here that often?

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He calls a raise from the button then calls a 3bet from the blinds. His range really looks like AQ or maybe 88-TT. I don't see him just flat calling two raises w/AJ or AK... basically I think you have the best hand here more often than not and I cbet. The only hand I see raising you here is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I just don't see how he has AK/AA/KK/JJ/AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT this is a good evaluation.. although i still give up if called on flop unless i have a read that he calls with AK here... then i fire 2 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .. I'm a lagtard thou so don't listen to me

BTW, i also don't mind a C/R here... although i give up to any further play.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

I don't like the CRAI at all. the times he leads with AK and calls our shove outweights the times he bets with something worse than we have VS. folding or calling our shove. This is spew and villain will more than likely check behind with a worse hand than ours as the board would look pretty ugly for any hand worse than ours that villain might have.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ummm... call me a lagtard, but I'd crai

[/ QUOTE ]
easy crai here imo

[/ QUOTE ]

After thinking about it/stoving it I think this is definitely the best line to take.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6...entaspxux3.jpg

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

crai is terrible

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

I really think Im missing something here but how is crai even remotely good? I would love to hear the thinking behind this. I b/f here all day as far as my default line btw.

Re: Nl50 QQ I 3bet - Ugly flop, c/f?
 

well dlorc said this:
[ QUOTE ]
If you check you're getting fired at regardless

[/ QUOTE ]

which, i think will be true a high majority of the time.

b/c of this, he'll be firing with hands such as 22-TT, AK-AT (I really don't put him on AK here though), KQ.

If you bet this flop you lose value from all the hands you beat, and just lose more money from the hands that have you crushed. So I hope that this explains why betting out on the flop here is bad.

the reason i like the crai is b/c you will get value from those hands that you beat, you might fold out a K, and if villain has a draw, you basically force him to fold out a free draw. All the other times, you lose your money, but based on description of villain I think we are ahead here way more than we are behind.

In addition, for meta-game purposes he will think twice about being so aggro with us in the future.

p.s. This line should probably also be taken with a hand like QT or two spades imo