AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

call, raise, or fold here?

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $4.70
UTG: $1.82
MP: $12.07
CO: $12.05
BTN: $4.45
Hero (SB): $9.71

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, CO folds, BTN calls $0.05, Hero ...

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Im raising 0.3 here. And betting almost all flops with 2 villians in it.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Raise for sure. You don't want a scenario where you lead out a flop like J67 w/ two suits and one of the limpers reraises you. With the right board texture, you should be able to C-bet and take the pot if you miss as well.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Is it too nittish to want to fold here? You're OOP with an easily dominated hand that has little chance of hitting a monster. I just think there's too much of a chance that we'll get 3+ callers and that's a poor spot to be in even if we hit top pair.

Also if i'm going to raise here it'll be to ~0.45 to give the limpers poor odds to call.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

yes, too nittish to fold. raise it up.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Raise it up.

Be careful if MP comes along. Against UTG and/or Button I commit whenever I hit top pair because they are so short.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

I look at it this way, if you're a great oop post flop player with 2-3 callers, go ahead and raise. (5NL is full of calling stations who don't know how/when to fold, so I dont like this option)

If you want to play it safe and fold then this should be an acceptable option here. From experience, if you get 2 or 3 callers to a PFR, you will get a c-bet caller on ANY flop about 70% of the time. In other words, if you don't want to find yourself in a potentially marginal situation (especially since we will be OOP), a fold is more than fine.

I posted the thread to get some discussion going on this type of situation, because I think we run into it often and find ourselves in sticky post flop spots that we're not comfortable with.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

With these kind of hands in SB or BB with a couple of limpers i like to make a nice big raise 7,8 or 9x BB basically enough to fold everyone out, which is usually what happens.
If i get a caller im betting flop everytime to give him a chance to fold.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

I usually raise 4BB + 1BB per limper

Most of the time they'll all fold tho

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
With these kind of hands in SB or BB with a couple of limpers i like to make a nice big raise 7,8 or 9x BB basically enough to fold everyone out, which is usually what happens.

[/ QUOTE ] your goal for a preflop raise is to get it HU, not to get everyone to fold... I mean heck, if you have pocket aces, do you want everyone to fold ur raise? NO! it's the same mentality. you want villain to call your raise (extra cash) and then own him with your sexy postflop play.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Raise 4*bb +1bb per limper. If you are HU thereafter, cbet. If you are 3handed, CBET.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

as for the main point of this post, i would raise here b/c a hand like AJo is essentially good but also essentially too vulnerable to go up against 3 other peeps. u try and get this HU. if someone reraises, fold while gnashing ur teeth (but make sure to fold!). AJo, KQo, A10o and such hands often make second best hands to showdown. Fold these to reraises preflop (especially if ur OOP).

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With these kind of hands in SB or BB with a couple of limpers i like to make a nice big raise 7,8 or 9x BB basically enough to fold everyone out, which is usually what happens.

[/ QUOTE ] your goal for a preflop raise is to get it HU, not to get everyone to fold... I mean heck, if you have pocket aces, do you want everyone to fold ur raise? NO! it's the same mentality. you want villain to call your raise (extra cash) and then own him with your sexy postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah with AA im never making this big a raise from SB or BB but that was not OP's example his example was AJo(which can be a troublesome hand OOP) which i never want to play HU OOP against villan who called my standard size raise.
Basically i like to take this one down PF and move on, as for sexy post flop play you raise this one 4xBB + 1 per limper (standard play in position of course) get two callers flop comes Axx or A10x you bet out get called or raised what do you do now?

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Why is it so painful for people to find their fold button here?

You're guaranteeing yourself a maximum loss of two pennies by folding. If we raise it up 4BB + 1BB for every limper, we're asking for a classic "one bad call induces 3 others" at 5NL. If we can't get this to heads up, which is so difficult to do, we're a huge underdog to take down the pot postflop OOP.

Only sure way to take this down would be to over-raise like 10-12 BB's, but even then you get passive donkeys who call because its only .55. Players dont think in relative pot size at this limit.

Fold ONE hand, come on you can do it! Silly 6max NL players. If we're playing a 500-1k hand session, I think we can find a better spot and fold one here.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

it all depends on the people you're playing. if they raise preflop more than 8% of the time, it's safe to assume they would have raised AQ and AK so why not raise AJ? at $5 limits you can and will get paid off with this hand in the long run. however if they don't raise PF very often at all and you believe they would limp with aq or ak, a fold is fine here.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Folding in this spot is weak/tight IMO nobody has raised for all you know you could have the best hand.
Ive been taking this line since reading this excellent post
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...t=1#Post7827947 and my game has improved remarkably. gl

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I look at it this way, if you're a great oop post flop player with 2-3 callers, go ahead and raise. (5NL is full of calling stations who don't know how/when to fold, so I dont like this option)



[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?

So villains in this hand are terrible and will limp call a raise with much worse with AJ.

They are also stations postflop and will stick around with hands that you crush when you hit the flop.

Conclusion = fold? This doesn't make any sense.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to play it safe and fold then this should be an acceptable option here. From experience, if you get 2 or 3 callers to a PFR, you will get a c-bet caller on ANY flop about 70% of the time. In other words, if you don't want to find yourself in a potentially marginal situation (especially since we will be OOP), a fold is more than fine.


[/ QUOTE ]

So don't c bet. Just put as much money in the pot with the best hand as you can. AJ is way ahead of their range preflop and you will get a bunch of flops in which they will pay you off.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
So villains in this hand are terrible and will limp call a raise with much worse with AJ.

They are also stations postflop and will stick around with hands that you crush when you hit the flop.

Conclusion = fold? This doesn't make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's look at it this way. I don't have PokerStove available right now, but I'll do my best to guess it out.

Say I have AJo, followed by 2 callers if I raise. They have K10o and 78s. We may be, say a 40% favorite to win the hand PF against K10o-30% 78s-30%. This means that although we have the highest proportion to win, 40/100, we are still behind to the combonation of proportions out against us (30+30=60/100) We hit our pair on the flop less than 50% of the time. If we plan on c-betting any flop to take it down, we're going to get a call in many spots because 2 random holdings will hit at least a draw on a random board that we miss. Double barreling is so spewy at 5NL, so most of the time we're facing an OOP situation on the turn after a failed c-bet with one caller that stuck around.

If we're fortunate to hit Jxx then great. But even if we hit Axx we must proceed with caution in light that many villains limp call with AQ+, especially UTG and MP.

I apologize if this is hard to follow, but SO much money is spewed OOP because we look at a hand like AJo preflop, which may in fact be a favorite at the time, but things change drastically on the flop with more than half the deck out against us when its difficult to get it heads up.

[ QUOTE ]
WTF?

[/ QUOTE ]

p.s. I don't find this highly necessary in fostering healthy discussions.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let's look at it this way. I don't have PokerStove available right now, but I'll do my best to guess it out.

Say I have AJo, followed by 2 callers if I raise. They have K10o and 78s. We may be, say a 40% favorite to win the hand PF against K10o-30% 78s-30%. This means that although we have the highest proportion to win, 40/100, we are still behind to the combonation of proportions out against us (30+30=60/100) We hit our pair on the flop less than 50% of the time. If we plan on c-betting any flop to take it down, we're going to get a call in many spots because 2 random holdings will hit at least a draw on a random board that we miss. Double barreling is so spewy at 5NL, so most of the time we're facing an OOP situation on the turn after a failed c-bet with one caller that stuck around.

If we're fortunate to hit Jxx then great. But even if we hit Axx we must proceed with caution in light that many villains limp call with AQ+, especially UTG and MP.

I apologize if this is hard to follow, but SO much money is spewed OOP because we look at a hand like AJo preflop, which may in fact be a favorite at the time, but things change drastically on the flop with more than half the deck out against us when its difficult to get it heads up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did you even read all my post? You don't have to c bet every flop multiway.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it so painful for people to find their fold button here?

You're guaranteeing yourself a maximum loss of two pennies by folding. If we raise it up 4BB + 1BB for every limper, we're asking for a classic "one bad call induces 3 others" at 5NL. If we can't get this to heads up, which is so difficult to do, we're a huge underdog to take down the pot postflop OOP.

Only sure way to take this down would be to over-raise like 10-12 BB's, but even then you get passive donkeys who call because its only .55. Players dont think in relative pot size at this limit.

Fold ONE hand, come on you can do it! Silly 6max NL players. If we're playing a 500-1k hand session, I think we can find a better spot and fold one here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Others have said it but it should be reiterated. The purpose of raising preflop is not to make everyone fold. It seems like so many of us micro players think that it should be our goal to get people to fold hands that are worse than ours. Yes it isn't fun if the whole table calls and you whiff, but so what? You don't have to try to push it through all the way to the river just because you raised preflop.

If we are planning on playing a long session then we should be more willing to raise in spots like this because over the long run it is +EV to raise AJ. And we aren't losing just the 2 pennies when we fold. We're losing all the bets we could potentially have won on later streets.

AJo from the sb can be a pain and you don't have to raise it, but if you play decent post flop you probably should.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you even read all my post? You don't have to c bet every flop multiway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes sir.

[ QUOTE ]
So don't c bet. Just put as much money in the pot with the best hand as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you're going to do this you might as well just call preflop, or fold. If I'm gonna build pot preflop with no intention of c-betting (which I never do) its going to be with suited connectors or small-medium pp's for set value.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it so painful for people to find their fold button here?

You're guaranteeing yourself a maximum loss of two pennies by folding. If we raise it up 4BB + 1BB for every limper, we're asking for a classic "one bad call induces 3 others" at 5NL. If we can't get this to heads up, which is so difficult to do, we're a huge underdog to take down the pot postflop OOP.

Only sure way to take this down would be to over-raise like 10-12 BB's, but even then you get passive donkeys who call because its only .55. Players dont think in relative pot size at this limit.

Fold ONE hand, come on you can do it! Silly 6max NL players. If we're playing a 500-1k hand session, I think we can find a better spot and fold one here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you put in two of pokeys points in "ugly comments in hand histories" into one post

1. "weve only put in two pennies"
2. "we can find a better spot

check out his post, i bumped it with you in mind

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

lol wtf, you all raise here? I'd never ever do that. Call

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol wtf, you all raise here? I'd never ever do that. Call

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

I guess I'm just thinking out of the box here. I find that people who disagree with OP are most likely to respond and people who are on the fence or actually agree with me tend not to post in fear of getting flamed (which I don't mind obviously).

I still have long term profits which come from picking spots I'm comfortable playing. I guess missing tiny value in a "bunch" of these spots, as many suggest, isn't of my main concern.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
check out his post, i bumped it with you in mind

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Pokey's post is very good. However I read somewhere on here that if you're not comfortable playing in marginal situations (which routinely occur OOP), avoiding them is fine until you become a better post flop player.

I sometimes call here/sometimes fold. If I'm running terrible I don't want to run into a stupid spot so I might just fold to save my sanity.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

the way to become a better postflop player isnt to avoid marginal spots.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
the way to become a better postflop player isnt to avoid marginal spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Avoiding marginal spots is mentioned in numerous CR videos aimed at relatively new players. I've also read it in a couple good 2+2 posts (don't know them off the top of my head). You can practice playing post flop in hands that you feel comfortable and GRADUALLY move into marginal spots. But playing every marginal spot you encounter is spew for a beginner, which I still consider myself to be obv since I'm playing 5NL.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

this isnt a bad marginal spot though

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

[ QUOTE ]
this isnt a bad marginal spot though

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it can turn bad if we raise, like most people here are suggesting we do.

If we just call, which I feel is the correct play with so many limpers, then yes you're right.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

Thanks for bumping Pokey's post btw. I hadn't seen it til you brought it to my attention.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

i have to go to class, but for me this is usually a raise/fold spot. calling just leaves you with a hand that youre rarely sure that youre well ahead even when you hit OOP. pretty bad spot

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

if you fold this hand it is a great spew since you are missing many bets in the long run.

if you call you need to hit harder since you have multiple opponents who can themselves improve.

if you raise you dont have to hit the flop that bad to value bet the hand and you may take the pot down with a cbet(player dependent though)

but infact we have the best hand against their range so we should just raise, or call for monster value - i leave this to the mathematic masterminds [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

however folding this is retarded i think.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

I'm 50:50 and played something very similar twice earlier at 10NL. Once I folded and the other time I raised 4+1, got called by a bingo player looking for 2p (or something - called a lot and folded a lot). Flop came K83 - c-bet and fold.

Re: AJo OOP--multiple limpers
 

if you cbet this just depends on opponets, flop texture... just the usual stuff.

but you have to either (again very opponent dependant):

-raise because you want to get more money in the pot as long as you hold a hand that is considered to be favorite over their calling ranges.

-call because you want to somehow get your monster and will get paid off postflop in an unraised pot (which is likely at nl5)

-fold... well i dont know how this can even be an option this is not an ugly marginal spot you like to avoid. its just: "you have the best hand so play it like that" [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]