Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

Tighter than average 6/12 game, although we're still going 5 handed to the flop quite a bit. Postflop play is bad at best. Hero is in the CO with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and follows three limpers into the pot. Button and both blinds call. Here we go:

7 handed, 6 small bets ($5 goes to rake/jackpot/tip)

5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Both blinds and UTG check, UTG+1 bets, one fold, Hero (???)

There are 7 small bets in the pot and 4 live players behind me (three of whom have already checked). The bettor is straight-forward; he almost certainly has an 8 or a diamond draw. The the button is a tricky lag, who may or may not actually know what he's doing (I can't tell yet). Both blinds and UTG are loose passives who will likely peel this flop with almost any two but likely fold to a raise.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

In an attempt to improve my game I am going to try and start responding to posts... Take my advice FWIW. I mainly play live 8/16 and 2/4 online.

I raise in this situation but I tend to overplay hands like this... What are we accomplishing with this raise? Well, I think in a tight game, overcards, certainly not 67 or the diamond draw, we might get a weak 8 out of the game, plus I am hoping to pickup a draw on the turn and get a free card from the first bettor. I guess my raise here is basically for a free card on the turn unless we hit another 5.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

With four behind me I just fold. This is marginal at best, jess.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

In an attempt to remember to come back to this thread I'm going to post in it.

It's a tough one because of your read on UTG+1. If he was looser then you would have an easy raise and if was tigher then you could easily fold.

Don't call because the hand will be much tougher to play if it's multi-way. You might gain a little immediate equity by calling but will likely make more mistakes if several players call. Sometimes raise, esp if players seem uninterested. Fold only if you look left and your opponents are ready to fire.

The great think about limit is that the closer a decision the less it matters.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

Lately I started looking for leaks in my game and it is this type of hand I came up with as my biggest money waster.

Face it, we got nothing here. Middle pair with weak kicker on two flush flop. A six in not really good for us, a five sets us up for an expensive redraw.

Save you time and energy for a hand that is worth out playing your oppents.

Add a backdoor flush and I would peel one.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

Well I think we're betting a non diamond 6 on the turn of we stay in and if we're staying in we're raising (on the flop) to charge draws and for a free card if one of our five outs (needing to be discounted a little) don't hit.

Getting 7-1 plus implied odds with five-ish outs I don't think it's an automatic continue. Very thin. If the pot were 8-10 then I think automatic.

Raise or fold the flop.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

I'm folding and I don't think that it's particularly close.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding and I don't think that it's particularly close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

Thanks, the consensus seems to be fold, with a little bit of dissent (for which I'm grateful). On the hand in question I folded, then watched all 4 players behind me call the bet. I was thinking "Man, could I really have been wrong to be in there?"

For those of you folding, which of the following single things would make you raise:

1. Replace a diamond with a spade (rainbow, no back door draw).
2. Replace the club with a heart (back door draw).
3. Put 2 more small bets in the pot (9 total).
4. Put 4 more small bets in the pot (11 total).
5. Replace the 8 with a 7 or the 3 with a 4 (create a one card gut shot).

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

ez fold imo

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

four and five. But I STILL hate having four behind us.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

I just can't seem to let this one go. I have as many as 6 outs (two 5s that should be golden, three 6s that are questionable, and a running straight), but I probably need to discount that to about 4 given the 2 flush. The pot's not laying me nearly enough to draw at 4 outs....

The problem is, I feel like my hand might currently be best a pretty good portion of the time here. As I said in my post, the table was tighter than usual, so I think that eights and better fives are going to be a little less common than usual. If I hold the best hand here even 20% of the time I feel like I'd have to raise, no?

This is odd for me, because at the table I appear to have made the right decision, but with lots of time to think about it I feel like I messed up. Obviously this usually works the other way around [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pot's not laying me nearly enough to draw at 4 outs....

The problem is, I feel like my hand might currently be best a pretty good portion of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Even if you are best (which I don't think you are often enough to justify raising with so few outs if you're not) this is textbook RIO.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

back door straigh as a full out??? I think this is very loose imo. Also recheck the math, even if you don't chop and no one redraws with a flush runner-runner straight does not quite make a full out. flush does.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

[ QUOTE ]
back door straigh as a full out??? I think this is very loose imo. Also recheck the math, even if you don't chop and no one redraws with a flush runner-runner straight does not quite make a full out. flush does.

[/ QUOTE ]

how about you talk to jesse about that? whatever. we could count the six at two outs as well, leaving out the 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

OK, OK, OK....So let's say I've got just 4 outs (which is what I admitted up above). That leaves the pot thin by 4 small bets.

My question is this: How does the fact that my hand is good a non-zero amount of the time here change my calculations? It has to, right? If I raise, some percentage of the time everyone else is going to fold and the bettor is going to be holding nothing more than a flush draw (with 1 or 2 overs).

I agree with the fold now, I'm just trying to come up with a clear and easy to understand way to understand how that little piece of the probability pie helps.

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

I have no idea to answer that but I see what you're getting at.

Paging elindauer...

Re: Live 6/12: 56s Catches a little piece
 

OK, our 5's may be the best hand right now but they are still 5's and our kicker is not higher then the highest card on the broad. This means we could catch a 6 and still be behind. Not to mention it's puts three to the straight to go along with the flush draw. Or we could miss and pretty much any card puts another over out there.

No matter what we hit the redraw could kill us and cost us a lot of money.

When we play hands like this we need to hit the flop, here we got a tiny piece and our draws suck. Classic fold.

There is no reason to fight over every hand we are in.