Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

I know that this isn't technically a high stakes tourney but whatever, I need some high stakes assistance. Okay, so I've been pretty aggressive and running pretty well at this table. I've raised a ton but whenever I got looked up I always had the goods.

The raiser has not minraised once and has been playing a game leaning on the side of solid. He hasn't shown down any hands postflop yet so I haven't been able to figure out what his thought process yet. P.S. Sorry for not putting this in your 2+2 format or whatever.

Full Tilt Poker Game #4234194715: $16,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (31559838), Table 5 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:41:49 ET - 2007/11/19
Seat 1: krazylouie (13,192)
Seat 2: perscription (29,686)
Seat 3: NLChronic (9,905)
Seat 4: MoormanI (16,079)
Seat 5: allinstevie (15,373)
Seat 6: pdloan com (58,416)
Seat 7: Roothlus (47,470)
Seat 8: 8balldeluxe (8,994)
krazylouie antes 100
perscription antes 100
NLChronic antes 100
MoormanI antes 100
allinstevie antes 100
pdloan com antes 100
Roothlus antes 100
8balldeluxe antes 100
NLChronic posts the small blind of 400
MoormanI posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roothlus [Qc Kc]
allinstevie folds
pdloan com raises to 1,600
Roothlus calls 1,600
8balldeluxe folds
krazylouie folds
perscription folds
NLChronic folds
MoormanI calls 800
*** FLOP *** [Kd 2d Th]
MoormanI checks
pdloan com bets 6,000
Roothlus calls 6,000
MoormanI has 15 seconds left to act
MoormanI folds
*** TURN *** [Kd 2d Th] [Qd]
pdloan com checks
Roothlus has 15 seconds left to act
Roothlus ????

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

hey rooth. i would definitely bet here and call a check raise, there are semibluffs in his range and he can have QJ KT etc, easily anything w the minraise.

post more plz

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

Like 18k in the pot and you are 40 deep, I think that like betting 12 and calling a shove is probably pretty standard, I think hes generally potting the flop with a range weighted more towards made hands that he feels are vulnerable, I doubt he has AJ here very often, and I think he will be check shoving well behind quite frequently if you bet.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

bet/call shove.

What about this situation do you think is tough?

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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bet/call shove.

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Yupper.

Edit: didn't realize it was a min raise, ignore.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

i will post more here. p5s just isnt cutting it for strategy these days.

so im just supposed to stack off here if i bet and he shoves? you really think an unknown player is going to check/shove 34k in on a draw when I've already shown a good amount of strength? However, if I'm playing against one of you guys I'm stacking off all day.

why is checking out of the question here? it stops me from stacking off to any flush/any set and I can actually get some value out of top pair and whatnot if its a clean river. I know I'm checking here with black Aces almost everytime and I'm pretty sure he's betting the turn with a lesser two pair, not check-raising.

It's been a long day so sorry if my thoughts are a bit jumbled. Also, fwiw I asked 2 legit cash game players and they both check the turn.

P.S. gl at the 100r ft Bakes.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

who are said legit cash game players?

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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who are said legit cash game players?

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Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

daut/bryn kenney and yes, i consider bryn a legit cash game and tournament player.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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bet/call shove.



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Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

turn is easy bet/call. but does anyone else wanna fold the flop?

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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Also, fwiw I asked 2 legit cash game players and they both check the turn.



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With what plan for what action on what rivers?

I'm not averse to this plan FWIW, although my first thought was bet/call/standard etc.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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turn is easy bet/call. but does anyone else wanna fold the flop?

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I folded the flop in this exact spot in the Foxwoods 10K (except for the minraise pre -- EP raise, I called in EP, BB called, K high rainbow flop, initial raiser led out). After doing so, I concluded I should have just folded pre rather than calling a raise in EP with KQs.

As played, I agree with everyone that I'm bet/calling the turn here.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

if he check-raises here, what hand that we beat does so? AA. I don't see a check raise on turn from many hand that we beat. He's not doing it w/ AK, AQ,JJ. I'd prolly fold to CR.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

never mind, didn't see the minraise; get ur chips in

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

i told rooth if he doesnt know this guy is capable of check shoving a draw then i dont see any problem checking behind and value betting non AJ9diamond rivers.

the standard is for sure to bet/call but i dunno, cash game mindset, have trouble playing against people i have 0 history with so i tend to play a little more cautious against them.

but on that same note, minraise ep, unlikely he even bets the flop with AJ, diamonds seem unlikely, one combo of KK/QQ each, TT probably fronts the turn, hard to really put him on a hand and regardless of what hes capable of it seems bet/calling cant be that bad because his range simply doesnt have you beat that often.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

yea he might have a flush but there are tons of hands he puts more money in with

bet turn definitely

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

If you think his CR range is really really strong maybe bet fold but bet here for suuuuuure, him checking a bigger hand that is good enough to CR is too unlikely and it's not like we have a draw we don't want to be blown off of.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

He'll probably check/shove any Ad/pair hand. AdQx, etc.

So definitely bet/call seems good.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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yea he might have a flush but there are tons of hands he puts more money in with

bet turn definitely

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Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

i got him pinned on AdK or AdA planning on check raising you all in on the turn if u bet...so obv raise/call

i very much doubt hes checkin the turn there with any set or hand that he beats u with on the turn and giving you a free card on that board....

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

My instinctual reaction oddly enough was to check behind on the turn. Not only does it make it a lot harder to get stacked (he basically has to now check raise the river just to have a chance at stacking us since we are just calling a river bet), but we also gain a lot of equity from bluffs IMO.

Part of the problem is the fact that he minraised. I think that makes AK less likely, but makes pairs (both big and small) and Axd more likely. I would be a lot more happy to get it all-in on the turn vs a checkraise if he just made a normal raise preflop.

I think it's very close between checking and betting the turn. I guess I don't know what a low stakes players' range here preflop is well enough to decide. If it isn't very likely that we are beat then we should probably just get it in since there are a lot of cards that can come to either beat us, or kill our action, and sometimes even lose us the pot when we have the best hand. However, I think it's very likely we are beat (very likely does NOT mean > 50%).

Preflop is fine. Reraising is fine too, but it should be biggish. The reason is that we want to know that if he calls, there's a good chance he has QQ+ and can shut down. If we reraise small we don't get that info because he might call with a wider range of hands, and we would have to c-bet most flops. Obv fold to 4 bet. And no, we are not turning our hand into a bluff by doing this, because sometimes we will stack AA or KK if he decides to just call, especially if we take our free card on the flop (even when we hit 1 pair or a flush draw).

Folding the flop would be terrible IMO.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

I disagree w the minraise read, it is broadway a lot. KJ, KQ, QJ, JT have to be weighted equally with pairs and Axs imo.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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very likely does NOT mean > 50%


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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

I think pdloan overvalued his hand. AA, AK are very often in his range, I don't think he leads this much into two players with a set. I don't give him credit for being able to bet this large with AJd or QQ on the flop.

Move this thread to the bad beat forum [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
or
Sorry you made a bad fold when he reraised you all-in.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

too many high diamonds are on the board and his PF/flop sizes don't indicate to me hands that would make flushes on this board. Also I prob fold the flop with someone left to act who is short compared to that bet.

The PFminR is planning on calling the blinds shove who he either has you crushed or a lot of outs. So just fold the flop you can't play this as profitably as you think because if he checks to you on blank turns you going to be playing pot control and checking behind thus giving his draws free cards as well. So there are sooo few good outcomes from calling this flop that I just fold it and prob fold it PF if I'm agraid I'll get squeezed with soo many people left to act who are either shoving or folding.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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too many high diamonds are on the board and his PF/flop sizes don't indicate to me hands that would make flushes on this board. Also I prob fold the flop with someone left to act who is short compared to that bet.

The PFminR is planning on calling the blinds shove who he either has you crushed or a lot of outs. So just fold the flop you can't play this as profitably as you think because if he checks to you on blank turns you going to be playing pot control and checking behind thus giving his draws free cards as well. So there are sooo few good outcomes from calling this flop that I just fold it and fold it PF if I'm agraid I'll get squeezed with soo many people left to act who are either shoving or folding.

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Like this one word by word.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

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very likely does NOT mean > 50%


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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Speaking relatively obviously. Don't know why you would nitpick when I went out of my way to clarify.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

folding pre is fine.. but folding this flop is terrible as ZeeJ stated.. the only bad outcome is if moorman shoves and pdloan flatcalls.. all other outcomes seem fine... as played to the turn i definantly check the turn.. it was my first instinct and after contemplating it i still think its right. the random will check/shove the turn with a hand thats beating you 90% of the time and the other 10% its AdAx or AdKxQx which i really would not be too happy getting in 47k on the turn at 4/8 blinds.. thus i would check behind turn, call a bet on a safe river and value bet if checked too.

Re: Really Tough Spot in FTP 30rebuy
 

Roothlus, I don't disagree with your mentality of checking if this were the 100+, but in a low stakes mtt this action tends to suggest AA, imo. Min-raise pre fits the bill there too.

If villain is an ABC tag, his check is simply weak on 4th.