Flopped trips
 

A couple of people posting, so I limped early with A2s. Flop gave me trips with top kicker. BB is 23/5.7/2.9 over 300 hands, with a flop AF of 5.3! Should I be raising to charge a possible flush draw or trying to get overcalls?

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.10. MP3 posts a blind of $0.15.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...

Re: Flopped trips
 

Raise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Flopped trips
 

BBs AF means that he fit-or-folds a lot not that he is mainiacal, but
with a two tone board and a decent pot forming I'm raising.

Re: Flopped trips
 

I raise flop. and still expect overcalls. It's microstakes limit and calling 2 cold probably won't phase a lot of your opponents when they have a flushdraw, 7, 2 with a weaker kicker, or pocket pair. Get your money in and expect profits.

Re: Flopped trips
 

Anyone wanna wait with the raise until turn?

There's no way we can protect our hand against a FD (which is the only hand we'd really like to get rid of here). By raising we make sure that FDs get the odds to correctly call the turn too.

If we wait until turn we'd have a much better chance to protect it. Then again, if BB doesn't bet the turn we're in the same situation as on the flop but he seems aggressive enough. Unless of course, he's the one with the FD.

Call flop, raise a non heart turn or bet if noone else did.

Re: Flopped trips
 

Raise for value. It is seldom, if ever, a good idea to slow play trips. Nobody will believe that you have a two anyway.

Re: Flopped trips
 

Raise. They'll put you A7 before they put you on A2.

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should I be raising to charge a possible flush draw or trying to get overcalls?

[/ QUOTE ]

you should be value raising. flush draws are coming along anyway.

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone wanna wait with the raise until turn?

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I don't think this is the spot to wait. Flush draws are rarely folding on the turn for a raise either. Just charge them now and maybe Mr. Aggressive will give us the opportunity to cap this flop. With a 5+ Flop AF there is a good chance we can four bet.

Re: Flopped trips
 

Another drawback of waiting to raise the turn is that there's no guarantee that the flop bettor will lead the turn after he gets called in a bunch of spots.

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone wanna wait with the raise until turn?

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No.

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There's no way we can protect our hand against a FD (which is the only hand we'd really like to get rid of here).

[/ QUOTE ]
O RLY? Pot is 6.5 SB on the turn. Flop bettor makes it 7.5 and we're making it 9.5-2 to call. At 4.75-1, that's not enough to call with an eight-out flush draw (A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] boats us up).

We're too vulnerable with low trips to give free cards. Even if someone makes the flush on the turn we have as many as 10 outs with a boat redraw. Get the money in.

Re: Flopped trips
 

I'd raise, but just calling isn't nearly as bad as everyone seems to be making it out to be. The important question is whether you think BB will lead on the turn again, not whether you'll make such and such hand fold behind you.

Flush draws that aren't folding on the flop also aren't folding on the turn, so if you can make them call two cold on the turn, that's a doubly good thing. Overcards are drawing to runner-runner and don't realize it. If they catch their overcard pair outs, they might feel compelled to call two cold drawing to two outs.

But both of those scenarios depend on having BB bet again.

Re: Flopped trips
 

I'll try to expand on my thinking here a bit.
First of all we're almost certainly ahead here and want to extract as much money as possible. If we just call, overcards, PPs and anyone holding a 7 will think that their hand is worth calling one more with. That way we likely get at least 2 extra bets. But when we raise, even the most dense player would figure that his J9 is no good anymore. So effectively a raise makes sure that we extract one more bet from a FD who, calculating his implied odds, correctly makes a call.

On top of that it makes it possible, if we get the chance, to raise and protect on the turn.

So basically we risk less, gain more (or at least as much) and can protect our hand by calling.

Re: Flopped trips
 

Raise. you had mentioned that players with FD will chase. You will also want overcards to call so they hope to hit their broadways on the later streets and pay you off.

This raise would be for value... charge them early! and if BB 3-bets, I would choose to cap the flop. Raise again if the turn card is not a heart, and if BB bets out on the turn again.

Re: Flopped trips
 

I raise.Many villins wii call anyway, so just pump ur equity.

Re: Flopped trips
 

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On top of that it makes it possible, if we get the chance, to raise and protect on the turn.

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Protect from what? If we want to maximize our winning chances I think raising the flop is obviously best. Not that it is our primal goal neccerily (how do u spell this #¤"#¤ word?).

Re: Flopped trips
 

Ok, thanks guys. What actually happened:
PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.10. MP3 posts a blind of $0.15.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

So I felt calling could've kept people with OCs in. But probably being result-oriented; it's rare to get so many folds.

Re: Flopped trips
 

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This raise would be for value... charge them early! and if BB 3-bets, I would choose to cap the flop. Raise again if the turn card is not a heart, and if BB bets out on the turn again.

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Don't cap the flop. Call a 3-bet and raise the turn.

Re: Flopped trips
 

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Protect from what?

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I thought I made it clear that imo our only concern is someone holding two hearts?

Re: Flopped trips
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Protect from what?

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I thought I made it clear that imo our only concern is someone holding two hearts?

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Someone holding two hearts is not a concern its an opportunity.

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Protect from what?

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I thought I made it clear that imo our only concern is someone holding two hearts?

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Will they fold to a turn raise?

Re: Flopped trips
 

you guys are really paranoid about flush draws on this forum [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Flopped trips
 

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Will they fold to a turn raise?

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I dont really care what they do. Protecting our hand is not about that. It's about either making them fold correctly in which case we win, or make a -EV call in which case we also win since -EV for them means +EV for someone else (preferably us). It's a zero-sum game.

Re: Flopped trips
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Will they fold to a turn raise?

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I dont really care what they do. Protecting our hand is not about that. It's about either making them fold correctly in which case we win, or make a -EV call in which case we also win since -EV for them means +EV for someone else (preferably us). It's a zero-sum game.

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Why if there is a flush draw on the flop must someone have the draw? It's 3-handed, and people will call a bet on that flop with a lot more than an FD. There's a really good chance that when you raise the turn you'll blow out a hand that you wouldn't have minded calling. You should still raise if the situation arises, but it's more about value than protection.

With all that said, raise the flop. You can't be sure that BB will bet again.

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
...neccerily (how do u spell this #¤"#¤ word?).

[/ QUOTE ]

necessarily

Re: Flopped trips
 

Lots of people are advocating raising for value on the flop. Anyone care to estimate how much more value we get out of raising as opposed to calling?

If raising reduce the amount of callers to half in comparison to the number that'd only call 1 bet, then calling and raising has the same expected value. Only difference is our risk/reward ratio.

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of people are advocating raising for value on the flop. Anyone care to estimate how much more value we get out of raising as opposed to calling?

If raising reduce the amount of callers to half in comparison to the number that'd only call 1 bet, then calling and raising has the same expected value. Only difference is our risk/reward ratio.

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If you're trying get a mathematical proof that calling is better than raising, you're going to be disappointed. There are too many variables to track. For example, calling allows a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x/K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x/Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x and on to peel one off on the flop with an overcard (or two) and a backdoor flush draw. If you raise now, you shut out the backdoor flush draw (or make that hand pay far too much to peel one off).

You also have to wonder whether raising now will give you action now against a hand like 99/88/7x that might slow down if an AKQJT falls on the turn.

I stand by my initial assessment, which is that raising now is probably best, but slowplaying here isn't a disaster. And a lot hinges on whether you think BB is going to be betting the turn.

Re: Flopped trips
 

I think that the problem here was that 3 players were posters, so they haven't choose their hands = less inclined to play them. Maybe with 3 PF callers your raise could had found more call on the flop so I'm for the raise in this spot.

(Sorry for the bad english.. both poker and grammatical advises are welcome)

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This raise would be for value... charge them early! and if BB 3-bets, I would choose to cap the flop. Raise again if the turn card is not a heart, and if BB bets out on the turn again.

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Don't cap the flop. Call a 3-bet and raise the turn.

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QFT

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This raise would be for value... charge them early! and if BB 3-bets, I would choose to cap the flop. Raise again if the turn card is not a heart, and if BB bets out on the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't cap the flop. Call a 3-bet and raise the turn.

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What happens if a heart falls on the turn? Would raising BB's turn donk be good if there are still players to act behind me?

If a flush has hit, I might be faced with a re-raise, and definitely have to see the river and hopefully make a boat.

Re: Flopped trips
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way we can protect our hand against a FD (which is the only hand we'd really like to get rid of here).

[/ QUOTE ]
O RLY? Pot is 6.5 SB on the turn. Flop bettor makes it 7.5 and we're making it 9.5-2 to call. At 4.75-1, that's not enough to call with an eight-out flush draw (A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] boats us up).

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9.5-2 is enough to draw to an 8 out flush because 1) they won't fold so they really only need a bit less than 2-1 to peel the flop and 2) the donker will almost surely call anyway, giving them 10.5-2 even if everyone else folds. If the donker has the flush draw, and you could guarantee that a raise would fold everyone else out, then the donker is paying 2 to win 8.5, and even he has enough to continue. You cannot protect yourself against a flush draw here.

That said, raise for value! The flush draw (should it exist) is +EV, but somebody else is paying for it.