Every street debatable
 

Villain is a 50/22/2.3 LAG after a small sample. No reads on his postflop game.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.6SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.3BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.3BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Not sure about the flop, I'll often peel and evaluate. Bet-calling seems wrong to me, I assume you're betting because a LAG would put in more action with a draw thus his hand range is weighted more towards ace high / underpair hands. I'd just check-call.

Re: Every street debatable
 

i think it's fine, but as an alternative you can consider testing his bluffing habits by c/c'ing all streets.

Re: Every street debatable
 

these are tough common hands, i like c/c'ing all streets if the board seems weak, if he checks behind the turn i fire river obviously for value from ace high. We lose a 1.5BB that way though as opposed to how you played it. I like c/r'ing the flop if the texture is more like K62 rainbow or something, this is a tough board to do it on.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I´d play it the same - river call is for meta. That would be my excuse [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].
I think he´s never bluffing in this spot after the 7 paired, but i still call to make him believe i´m a SD monkey.

Re: Every street debatable
 

What lag with a 2.3 ag. waits to the river to raise with a K or 7?

Re: Every street debatable
 

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these are tough common hands, i like c/c'ing all streets if the board seems weak, if he checks behind the turn i fire river obviously for value from ace high. We lose a 1.5BB that way though as opposed to how you played it. I like c/r'ing the flop if the texture is more like K62 rainbow or something, this is a tough board to do it on.

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I usually c/c all the way too against LAGs, mostly because I don't know any better.

What are the argumens for putting in a CR on the flop? Seems like our equity edge here is really thin. I guess it has something to do with how often he will fire the turn. If he checks behind Ax, QT etc then CR looks much better. But if he two barrel those hands I prefer the passive line.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Your edge on this flop is minimal and there are a lot of turn cards that would make you an underdog. There doesn't seem to be much point to committing yourself by checkraising. I would just call and reassess on the turn.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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Your edge on this flop is minimal and there are a lot of turn cards that would make you an underdog. There doesn't seem to be much point to committing yourself by checkraising. I would just call and reassess on the turn.

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agreed, as mentioned b4 i like this on much drier boards, or flops where less overs can come

example: we have 910 here and flop comes 39K rainbow, if he is a showdown monkey c/r'ing is fine here and firing for value as opposed to the board in this hand, raising 3rd pair doesnt have a huge edge and its tough to play when scares hit the board

Re: Every street debatable
 

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I would just call and reassess on the turn.

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On this particular turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], u do what after calling the flop? Pl explain some. I found these spot so difficult.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I play it the same. If a scare card hits the turn I just c/c down and let him bluff.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I c/c all streets here against this villain. His river raise is completely bizarre and I can't put him on a hand. I don't think you can fold the river here...just calling to see what he has is worth the 1 BB IMO. Then make a note.

Re: Every street debatable
 

really dislike the flop c/r. accomplishes very little

Re: Every street debatable
 

i have no problem with c/r the flop. You will get called down by A-hi/22-55 all the time. If a bad turn card falls this guy seems bad enough that c/c'ing down won't be terrible.

Also see merits in c/c, but if you are the type to get agro with lots of draws on this flop then it's not like it's *clearly* the best choice.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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His river raise is completely bizarre and I can't put him on a hand.

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He probably has 33 or 54. Or maybe he has a normal turn raise but waited for the river for some fishy reason.

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just calling to see what he has is worth the 1 BB IMO. Then make a note.

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This is silly. You call or fold based on pot odds and your chance of winning.

Do you really think you can make up a significant fraction of a lost BB just by seeing this one hand? Then think how much money you could make by carefully watching the table and making notes on all the hands you are not involved in. In a hundred hands you would have many dozens of good notes and you would be rich. No more multitabling--just play one table, watch carefully, take lots of notes, and make 10+ BB/100.

Reads are valuable but don't overrate them. Reads don't matter unless they cause you to make a different decision than you otherwise would have made. Let's look at the process:

1. Most decisions can be correctly made by assuming an average opponent and using basic poker skills.

2. Most of the mistakes caused by assuming an average opponent can be corrected by using Villain's stats in place of an average opponent.

That doesn't leave many opportunities to improve your decisions by using reads. Furthermore using the result of a single hand to overrule stats is a tricky business. One hand is the ultimate small sample. It's very rare that I would allow the result of one hand to change my decision unless the decision was close. But close decisions by definition don't matter very much.

I know this is heresy but online poker is not poker. The received wisdom of our B&amp;M forefathers is that watching the table is all-important and reads are crucial. But they don't use reads the way we use them. They use their reads to do many basic things that our HUDs do for us. Plus they play the same small group of opponents for hours, days, and weeks. Given the small sample size given in OP this Villain is very unlikely to be a regular. The odds are he'll be gone forever before you get another 100 hands in against him.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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His river raise is completely bizarre and I can't put him on a hand.

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He probably has 33 or 54. Or maybe he has a normal turn raise but waited for the river for some fishy reason.

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just calling to see what he has is worth the 1 BB IMO. Then make a note.

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This is silly. You call or fold based on pot odds and your chance of winning.

Do you really think you can make up a significant fraction of a lost BB just by seeing this one hand? Then think how much money you could make by carefully watching the table and making notes on all the hands you are not involved in. In a hundred hands you would have many dozens of good notes and you would be rich. No more multitabling--just play one table, watch carefully, take lots of notes, and make 10+ BB/100.

Reads are valuable but don't overrate them. Reads don't matter unless they cause you to make a different decision than you otherwise would have made. Let's look at the process:

1. Most decisions can be correctly made by assuming an average opponent and using basic poker skills.

2. Most of the mistakes caused by assuming an average opponent can be corrected by using Villain's stats in place of an average opponent.

That doesn't leave many opportunities to improve your decisions by using reads. Furthermore using the result of a single hand to overrule stats is a tricky business. One hand is the ultimate small sample. It's very rare that I would allow the result of one hand to change my decision unless the decision was close. But close decisions by definition don't matter very much.

I know this is heresy but online poker is not poker. The received wisdom of our B&amp;M forefathers is that watching the table is all-important and reads are crucial. But they don't use reads the way we use them. They use their reads to do many basic things that our HUDs do for us. Plus they play the same small group of opponents for hours, days, and weeks. Given the small sample size given in OP this Villain is very unlikely to be a regular. The odds are he'll be gone forever before you get another 100 hands in against him.

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OK, let me clarify. I would still fold if I had a hand that had no SD value at all, but combined with the hand that I have, the way the hand was played and the opponent we are up against I like a call. Seeing what the hell he played in the manner is just an added benefit.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Looks pretty standard from here. I guess the river is an unlikely bluff since it's the biggest brick ever.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I'm not sure I like the river call. If button doesn't have a 7, 54, or 33, he's got to fear that you have a 7 or a King. So he doesn't expect you to fold this river. That means that all you beat is a bluff, and I can't imagine him picking this spot to do it. That said, there are busted heart draws, A3, or complete air that he could pull this off with 10% of the time, which is all you need to call. So calling can't be much of a mistake.

The flop play interests me. Since this was a steal raise preflop, I don't see how we are necessarily losing. Villain should have 6 outs usually, and sometimes we have him drawing to two outs. We would like to charge villain to hit his 6 outer on the river (by c/r flop) instead of allowing him to take a free card on the turn when we just c/c flop.

I'd like to hear more analysis of this flop/turn play, because this situation comes up pretty often. If we c/c and he bets the turn with AQ, QJ, Ax, we have to consider folding the best hand. Or else, we risk giving a free card to these hands that are drawing pretty slim. Perhaps if a brick turned, we could donk/fold it to prevent villain from checking behind? So perhaps another line could be c/c, b/f, ?/?

Since villain is a LAG, we run the risk of getting raised on the turn by an inferior hand when we c/r the flop, forcing us to make a mistake the times we fold.

Seems like c/c and c/r the flop each present difficulties on how to approach the turn.

As an alternative, I suppose we can c/c, c/c, c/f. Or else c/c and then bet the river when villain takes a free card on the turn.

Re: Every street debatable
 

this guy is going to charge himself to draw on the turn.

i just c/c down, and With that turn and river, i'm not folding.

As played, you are probably smoked on the river, but I can't see how you can fold.

Re: Every street debatable
 

WTF @ all this c/c down stuff? This retard 3bets everything but a K. Checkraise/cap ftw.

Re: Every street debatable
 

If we c/c the flop, we have to c/r a turn with a 7 imo. The 7 is a scary card, he folds very often a nine outers. Moreover if he 3 bet, we have 0 or 2 outs and we can make a clean fold.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Why are we not check calling the river as played against a 2.3 and giving him a chance to bet his busted draw or his A?

Re: Every street debatable
 

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Why are we not check calling the river as played against a 2.3 and giving him a chance to bet his busted draw or his A?

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Because he 3bets most draws on the flop &amp; calls with his A all day.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Against most lags with a c/r on the flop, it looks too suspicious. On this river nina can have a busted draw and he can make a crying call with ace high.

A raise on the river is very unlikely. c/c&lt;b/c, but it is not obvious c/f&lt;b/c.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Fold PF? 86o is hardly a powerhouse! As played just call him down and let him bluff off chips ace high. On the river he's ahead.

Re: Every street debatable
 

No way I am folding preflop

I play 85o and 64o here

84o and I'd be torn.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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No way I am folding preflop

I play 85o and 64o here

84o and I'd be torn.

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http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2193/atchy2.jpg

Re: Every street debatable
 

Flop c/r is standard. It puts pressure on a button raiser w/a wide variety of hands that hate this flop. How do you feel w/QTo no heart? How bout AT no heart? You've gotta c/r here to balance when you will c/r w/a K or strait draw. On the river, I prefer to cc or b/f. Once he raises the river, AK and other good kings need to be put back into his hand range. I take this line all the time against tags in position.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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this guy is going to charge himself to draw on the turn.

i just c/c down, and With that turn and river, i'm not folding.

As played, you are probably smoked on the river, but I can't see how you can fold.

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This whole thread is sick. If I was forced to draw up a better example of when to run the "Check/Call Down" play I would be hard-pressed to beat out this hand.

Anybody who doesnt understand why C/Cing down unless the board gets really bad, is the play here needs to re-evaluate their game. I would start by getting back to the basics and opening up their dusty "Theory of Poker" books to pages 270-272.

For those like TheHip and Palomino who figured out that C/C down is the play here, you should pat yourselves on the back.

If I ever write a book on holdem this will be the type of situation I will use to illustrate when to apply the C/C down play. Here we have the perfect type of hand, against the perfect type of player to run this play so lets not check/raise the flop and screw this up.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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this guy is going to charge himself to draw on the turn.

i just c/c down, and With that turn and river, i'm not folding.

As played, you are probably smoked on the river, but I can't see how you can fold.

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This whole thread is sick. If I was forced to draw up a better example of when to run the "Check/Call Down" play I would be hard-pressed to beat out this hand.

Anybody who doesnt understand why C/Cing down unless the board gets really bad, is the play here needs to re-evaluate their game. I would start by getting back to the basics and opening up their dusty "Theory of Poker" books to pages 270-272.

For those like TheHip and Palomino who figured out that C/C down is the play here, you should pat yourselves on the back.

If I ever write a book on holdem this will be the type of situation I will use to illustrate when to apply the C/C down play. Here we have the perfect type of hand, against the perfect type of player to run this play so lets not check/raise the flop and screw this up.

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not trying to debate you, but how do you know the value of inducing bluffs on this board outweighs the value of him calling down with A high or lower pp + the value of not letting him take free cards? does it just come from experience or is there some way to see that?

on a related note, there's stox's c/r c/c c/c line.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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not trying to debate you, but how do you know the value of inducing bluffs on this board outweighs the value of him calling down with A high or lower pp + the value of not letting him take free cards? does it just come from experience or is there some way to see that?

on a related note, there's stox's c/r c/c c/c line.

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The conclusions I have come to are based solely on the stat read in the OP. This may not seem satisfying to you but thats all the information we have at this point. IMO this guys stats practically scream out "big time 3 barreler" to me, and this is the exact type of opponent where C/C down will be the money line. Now somebody could argue that Nina said that she had a small sample on this villain in the OP, but that really doesnt change much. Less information on what appears to be a very aggressive opponent would only make me more likely to apply a showdown cheaply line.

Given no other read to the contrary, there has to be some stat line that eventually leads you to conclude that C/Cing down with a marginal hand like this is better than taking an aggressive line. I strongly believe this guy has the stat line we're looking for when we are thinking about applying the C/C down line. I dont see this guy taking alot of free cards when he should. And I wouldnt be surprised if he bluffed Ax all the way or made some other retarded value bet on the river with a hand like 55. I believe this is the type of opponent who will make more mistakes with the initiative than without it.

About Stox C/R, C/C,C/C line. I have seen him use this like when he C/R a flop with a Gutshot draw and then hit a marginal pair on the turn vs an aggressive opponent, but other than that, I really do not see the point of this line. If you have another example of a hand when Stox ran this play, I would like to hear about it.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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About Stox C/R, C/C,C/C line. I have seen him use this like when he C/R a flop with a Gutshot draw and then hit a marginal pair on the turn vs an aggressive opponent, but other than that, I really do not see the point of this line. If you have another example of a hand when Stox ran this play, I would like to hear about it.

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He advices it with marginal hands on drawy boards. There is about 2 pages on it in the book.

I think this is an ok spot to consider it.

Hero has good but not great eq on the flop

This may or may not change on a bunch of possible critical turns

villain is prolly continuing with his entire range vs a c/r

When hero checks the turn this compulsive 3 barreler will prolly fire his entire range. And again on the river.


I have never used the line in this spot. I just realized that this look like a good line for this spot. But I could of course be missing something critical.

Re: Every street debatable
 

The major thing here is your river bet, I would give enough credit to villians turn call to c/c.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I really dislike c/c river for the reasons MacGuyV gave

He is fastplaying draws. So when you c/c river he is checking behind Ax and lower pairs a lot. Even this guy. You HAVE to bet to get value from those given your line so far.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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About Stox C/R, C/C,C/C line. I have seen him use this like when he C/R a flop with a Gutshot draw and then hit a marginal pair on the turn vs an aggressive opponent, but other than that, I really do not see the point of this line. If you have another example of a hand when Stox ran this play, I would like to hear about it.

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He advices it with marginal hands on drawy boards. There is about 2 pages on it in the book.

I think this is an ok spot to consider it.

Hero has good but not great eq on the flop

This may or may not change on a bunch of possible critical turns

villain is prolly continuing with his entire range vs a c/r

When hero checks the turn this compulsive 3 barreler will prolly fire his entire range. And again on the river.


I have never used the line in this spot. I just realized that this look like a good line for this spot. But I could of course be missing something critical.

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I dont want to give this guy a clue that I like my hand, so Im not check/raising the flop. Even If I really dont like my hand, a flop check/raise may confuse him into thinking I do like my hand and this realization alone may slow him down. Against players with these kind of stats, I think playing meekly with marginals will make more money than taking an aggressive line.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Gehrig said in this post, you have to c/f in order to balance this play. The only way, I can see to balance this play is to c/r sometimes the flop as a bluf. Otherwise this line will work just against very stupid lag imo and c/c c/c will be very often far more better. So you can use this line if the board on the flop is enough rag to try a c/r bluf. With the same (or quite similar) flop, you c/r with a bottom pair or a weak pp. Then the turn card gives a lot of draws, you are no comfortable with b/c and b/f, so in this case c/c can be good.

BTW it is not the case in this hand and if villain takes the free card he has with this turn at least 9 outs. You need a pretty good read to use this line.

Re: Every street debatable
 

SO if C/C, C/C, C/C is the money line here. What turns we fold? How about rivers? If turn comes A, do we fold? How about Q/J?

If turn is blank, do we ever fold river? If turn comes T/J/Q, do we fold river if its &gt;9 and it doesnt pair the board? These situations comes so often that it would be nice to hear how this kind of hand should be played with different variations.

Re: Every street debatable
 

"SO if C/C, C/C, C/C is the money line here. What turns we fold? How about rivers? If turn comes A, do we fold? How about Q/J?"

"If turn is blank, do we ever fold river? If turn comes T/J/Q, do we fold river if its &gt;9 and it doesnt pair the board? These situations comes so often that it would be nice to hear how this kind of hand should be played with different variations."

Generally speaking, if a Ten hits the turn I would definitely see the river since we now have a gutshot on the turn. A gutshot draw + a chance we still have the best hand means we cant fold IMO. And assuming the river blanks off I would C/C vs this villain.

If an Ace hits the turn I'm C/Fing. If a Q/J hits the turn I think the play is close but I would still C/F.

Playing the river assuming turn blanks off:

If the river is an Ace, I would again C/F. On a QJT river, Im sure the play is close but I would check/call vs this guy.

Against someone with these type of stats, I think its very important not to make tough folds on the river if we have a hand that can beat a bluff. Thats why I would still call a Q/J/T river in this scenario. The reason I would fold a Q/J turn card is becuz the chance if him having me beat combined with the chance of him outdrawing me on the river makes folding more attractive than calling IMO.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I check/call all streets without any hesitation.The only decision I think is close is the river one.
I could see myself donking getting value of A high.But I also see myself being forced to Bet/call like Nina and I very much doubt that the river call is good.
If we c/c on the other hand we miss value from worse hands.
But we also get value from hopeless hands that he must bet with in order to take down the pot and we don´t have to face the agony of a raise.