25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

This is my first post here and a hand from my first 2k cash hands I've played in the past few days (SNG transition). My playing stats are 31/14 and I have no read on opponent other than from the hand itself. Are you calling the river here and would you have put yourself in this position?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $19.50
MP: $15
CO: $25
BTN: $46.90
Hero (SB): $24.65
BB: $25.55

MP posts $0.25
Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, MP checks, CO folds, BTN calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $1.65</font>, BTN calls $1.65

Turn: ($5.80) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $2.25</font>, BTN calls $2.25

River: ($10.30) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $5</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $42 and is All-In</font>, Hero ($14.75 to call) ???

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

fold preflop - you need a read that BTN limp folds often to make this raise profitable and at these stakes few villains limp fold OTB so we ought to expect hte limp call more often than not.

Given that button open limped he has a small pair or suited/offsuit connectors here lots and htat flop hits his range.

Flop bet is good (if a little small) Turn is OK (tho $3.50 is a better size), tho I'd probably give up here and c/f turn.

c/f the river he's very rarely calling all the way down and then pushing OTT of a river bet with a hand that loses to A6 here.

The problem here is we are OOP. Wecan't tell if we are ahead/behind easil until lots is invested in the pot - and Axs is drawing hand - playing drawing hands OOP is trouble with a capital EVERYTHING.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

This is really easy fold in my opinion.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is really easy fold in my opinion.

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See Matrix post to see an example of a great reply. Pretty sure it says in FAQ not to make these sorts of replies as I cant learn anything from a reply that gives no reasoning.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop - you need a read that BTN limp folds often to make this raise profitable and at these stakes few villains limp fold OTB so we ought to expect hte limp call more often than not.

Given that button open limped he has a small pair or suited/offsuit connectors here lots and htat flop hits his range.

Flop bet is good (if a little small) Turn is OK (tho $3.50 is a better size), tho I'd probably give up here and c/f turn.

c/f the river he's very rarely calling all the way down and then pushing OTT of a river bet with a hand that loses to A6 here.

The problem here is we are OOP. Wecan't tell if we are ahead/behind easil until lots is invested in the pot - and Axs is drawing hand - playing drawing hands OOP is trouble with a capital EVERYTHING.

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Thanks Matrix. I've read some of the strat post and havn't seen much on how to play SB and BB except for 'play tight'. Is this how you play the SB/BB? I mean I robotically raise with axs if folded to me in mp-lp; with 1 or 2 limpers in SB I find it hard to lay it down and thus opt for a standard raise as I will usually have the best hand in that spot and often take it down there.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

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My playing stats are 31/14 and I have no read on opponent other than from the hand itself.


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Just a comment on your stats. If you are just starting NL cash, you're VPIP is way too high. Probably 18-22 VPIP is a good number of hands to play. You have to be pretty damn good post flop to play with VPIP of 31. And, your PFR is way too low in comparison to your VPIP. In 6max cash games, you don't ever want to open-limp. If you are first in, raise. And you rarely want to overlimp. If your hand is worth playing, raise the limper. If it is really marginal and not worth a raise, then toss it rather than overlimping. Your PFR shouldn't be more than 4 or 5 % less than your VPIP, and even something like 22/20 or 20/18 is good. YOu will never be able to move up with stats like 31/14.

I am wondering where your high VPIP comes from. Are you complete too many hands from SB, defending your blinds too much, open limping or overlimping, or a combination. All of these are leaks, and you should work on playing fewer hands, and not playing marginal hands (like A6s) OOP.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My playing stats are 31/14 and I have no read on opponent other than from the hand itself.


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Just a comment on your stats. If you are just starting NL cash, you're VPIP is way too high. Probably 18-22 VPIP is a good number of hands to play. You have to be pretty damn good post flop to play with VPIP of 31. And, your PFR is way too low in comparison to your VPIP. In 6max cash games, you don't ever want to open-limp. If you are first in, raise. And you rarely want to overlimp. If your hand is worth playing, raise the limper. If it is really marginal and not worth a raise, then toss it rather than overlimping. Your PFR shouldn't be more than 4 or 5 % less than your VPIP, and even something like 22/20 or 20/18 is good. YOu will never be able to move up with stats like 31/14.

I am wondering where your high VPIP comes from. Are you complete too many hands from SB, defending your blinds too much, open limping or overlimping, or a combination. All of these are leaks, and you should work on playing fewer hands, and not playing marginal hands (like A6s) OOP.

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I can beat with VPIP 31 over a large samplesize. But to be successfull with this style you need a lot of fish, willing to give you all their money when you decide to play a big pot on the turn. Against regulars, it's a waste of variance.

However, I agree on PFR. Playing 31 VPIP means should mean to play 31/28.

Limping is a waste against the fish also because you won't isolate the fish.

All in all 20/18 is usually enough for average. At certain tables however I would agree on raising and reraising close to every single hand from late position, just to isolate fish and get them to loose stacks sooner (even if they win small pots against you).

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

I thought the PFR is supposed to be around half of your VPIP? Or is this just full ring? My sample is only 2500 hands from 6 days and I ran good with starting hands so that accounts to some extent my high VPIP.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

this is an easy fold
-do not raise this out of the SB
-complete the blind
-if you don't hit a flush draw, trips, or 2 pair shut down because you're OOP
-if you do hit any of the above, lead out
-villain has an overpair or a set and isn't folding, if he's betting good for him catch him next time

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is an easy fold
-do not raise this out of the SB
-complete the blind
-if you don't hit a flush draw, trips, or 2 pair shut down because you're OOP
-if you do hit any of the above, lead out
-villain has an overpair or a set and isn't folding, if he's betting good for him catch him next time

[/ QUOTE ]

As it is turned out, I called, he turned over 93 and I shipped the pot accompanied by a fist pump!

.... However, I realise from yours and others advice that I played the hand -ev and that his range makes me beat % of the time on river to make it easy fold. I've also learnt that one of my big leaks must be in SB as I wasnt previously not aware of the logic behind not raising in that spot.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

I'm going to disagree with earlier posts that said fold preflop and modify that advice to - "fold preflop unless you know how to handle a dominated Ace out of position." I think there is value in raising this hand in this spot, but it's something that you really need to have a plan for. The fact that you're willing to call for all your money with third pair leads me to think you really had no plan for this hand. This is not a hand you should be so willing to commit with, bar a very very good read (which you didn't have).

As far as your PFR and VPIP relationship, the ratio should be much closer in 6-max. 6-max is an aggressive game and you must be raising the majority of hands you are willing to play preflop. So, your PFR should be near your VPIP. One of the statistical tells I use when picking out weak players is large gap between VPIP and PFR, because this indicates that they are either playing too many hands, or don't understand how to play well postflop.

Edit: Ominous post #666, woot.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

Thanks Quester. I guess I need to tighten up pre flop as I'm hardly ever limping - though my stats seem to suggest so.

I used the timeback to the last second or so looking at how the hand went down and did deduce some logic that he could not be raising with a hand. However, in the long term I need to apply the logic spoke of here; whats his range pre flop, what % makes it + ev, etc. And shouldn't have put myself in that position to begin with.

Re: 25 NL. Facing all in re-raise on river, holding low pair
 

There's no way I fold this preflop. You've got a suited ace and there are three players in the pot -- you're getting over 5-to-1 POT odds on a call. If you play for two-pair, flush draws, and trips you've got a +EV situation calling preflop. If you're savvy enough to spot good steal situations you might even get more +EV than that, but just playing for good hands and good draws will alone be +EV enough to continue.

If you DO decide to raise, $1 isn't enough. You're no longer playing in tournaments -- a good preflop raise size will be about 4xBB first in and adding an extra 1 BB per limper if your raising after limpers. From the blinds many people will add an extra one or two BBs to punish drawers even more heavily; that means that your preflop raise probably should have been between $1.50 and $2.

As played, betting the flop is mandatory. You've hit a sneaky hand and there's no reason to believe you're behind after a limp-call. Your bet size might be a tiny bit on the light side, but it's in the neighborhood; most players like to go about 3/4ths pot, give or take a bit. I think 2/3rds is just fine, so that looks good.

As played, your turn bet is a bit small. Less than half the pot looks weak, and it's the kind of bet that gets you into trouble later in the hand, since you won't know if a raise is for value or a bluff because you look weak. I'd either check/call the turn or bet $4. At this point, the two plays look about the same to me, and deciding between them would be driven more by my table image than by my hand: if I've been caught stealing a great deal I'd bet, but if I'd been weak-tight with folds I'd check-call.

As played, I probably check the river and call a reasonable bet. After I bet I'm really unhappy with the situation but I have to fold -- 3/4ths pot is just too much for me to comfortably back 3PTK, especially without a strong read on my opponent.