Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

I cant believe I'm asking but are we ever good here?

We're basically hoping the villian is over playing KK or AA but even bad players got to hesitate before three betting the turn. Does it become easier or harder to fold with the other players making the pot enormous. Villian cant be raising so light knowing everyone is coming along, but it makes the pot huge.

Action when Villian leads river?

Maybe I'm just second guessing myself after a rough day, but there were lots of hands like this where I know I' mbehind but cant get the fold button.

Quit being a baby and call down here or fold knowing I'm drawing to 1 out? Small $20 mistake vs. a huge $200+ one?

Dealt to CLEVERBEAVER [Js Jd]
CATLEWIS - Folds
ZOMBIE666 - Raises $10 to $10
KLONMIKE - Folds
MICHPU - Calls $10
CLEVERBEAVER - Raises $15 to $15
ORIOLES1983 - Folds
TARCARDS - Folds
ACTIONBETS - Raises $17 to $20
YASOOO - Folds
ZOMBIE666 - Calls $10
MICHPU - Calls $10
CLEVERBEAVER - Calls $5
*** FLOP *** [2s Qs Jc]
ACTIONBETS - Bets $5
ZOMBIE666 - Calls $5
MICHPU - Calls $5
CLEVERBEAVER - Raises $10 to $10
ACTIONBETS - Raises $10 to $15
ZOMBIE666 - Calls $10
MICHPU - Calls $10
CLEVERBEAVER - Calls $5
*** TURN *** [2s Qs Jc] [7c]
ACTIONBETS - Bets $10
ZOMBIE666 - Calls $10
MICHPU - Calls $10
CLEVERBEAVER - Raises $20 to $20
ACTIONBETS - Raises $20 to $30
ZOMBIE666 - Calls $20
MICHPU - Calls $20
CLEVERBEAVER ?

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

well please never fold this hand.

Couldn't he be pushing his pot equity with a monster flush + straight draw type of hand here also?

I think you are good enough to cap the turn and pray for a blank/J.

But yeah unless a spade comes on the river i'm seeing a showdown.

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
monster flush + straight draw type of hand here also?

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Range here has to be 4 hands. AA, KK, QQ and AsKs.

I'm not sure a lot of players 3 bet AsKs on the turn

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

And you are ahead of that range by a good ammt and definitely ahead of the other players in the pot. Cap for value and reeval river.

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

We're ahead of the range if its a straight pokerstove, but when he bet/3bets the flop and turn dont we have to weight his range heavily towards QQ?

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

you had a bad day. don't start folding the second nuts in huge pots because you're running bad. If you start folding here you are going to start having really really really bad days.

just keep this post bookmarkes, and when you start running good against (tomorrow?) come back and take a look at it and lol that you considered folding on the turn.

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

If I cap the turn, villian is obvisouly leading the river? call at that point yes?

If I had taken a different line and capped the flop, whats the play if the villian b/3b or c/r the turn?

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

do not fold unless another spade comes off and people go ape shi!t for multiple bets on the river. I think the turn is probably a cap, but if you really think you are behind actionbets range (and I'm not sure you are here because I have him being fairly laggy) you can call down from there.

if I capped the flop, which often I would, and villain b-3-bet me I would call down from his 3-bet since he is pretty much saying he has top set. If he c/r's the turn it would depend on the setup. If his c/r looks like he could be doing it to charge the field for flush and straight draws w/ AA or KK then I probably 3-bet and call down against a cap.

If this hand is a cooler and you lost that really sucks. But really don't worry about whether or not you put in 5BB or 7BB with the second nuts in a huge multiway pot.

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

If you've ever played me you know that folding never crossed my mind here. Honestly my biggest leak is that AP has deactivated my Fold button and I'm constantly throwing off 2BB calling on the turn and river when I know I cant be good and I'm looking for spots where I'm doing in it in HH reviews. This hand just stuck out when I did my post-day run down on [censored] hands because how big the pot was. I'm not sure I thought anyone would say fold (maybe now that I think about it this was just a thinly disguised bad beat story), but I honestly think I'm good here exactly never.

Action Bet is very Laggy but how laggy but I'm still not convinced many people b/3b both the flop and turn here without QQ. I'm pretty sure I wasnt calling a river bet if a spade hit, because seriously what can the other two players have? Both cant have KT.

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you've ever played me you know that folding never crossed my mind here. Honestly my biggest leak is that AP has deactivated my Fold button and I'm constantly throwing off 2BB calling on the turn and river when I know I cant be good and I'm looking for spots where I'm doing in it in HH reviews. This hand just stuck out when I did my post-day run down on [censored] hands because how big the pot was. I'm not sure I thought anyone would say fold (maybe now that I think about it this was just a thinly disguised bad beat story), but I honestly think I'm good here exactly never.

Action Bet is very Laggy but how laggy but I'm still not convinced many people b/3b both the flop and turn here without QQ. I'm pretty sure I wasnt calling a river bet if a spade hit, because seriously what can the other two players have? Both cant have KT.

[/ QUOTE ]

you certainly didn't fold much when we played earlier today [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

but then again a couple of times you made some nice calls when I was spewing in the blinds, and then a couple of times you paid me off when I hit some hands at our other table.

just remember, you can't win the pot if you fold. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you certainly didn't fold much when we played earlier today

[/ QUOTE ]

then you are well aware how likely it was I was going to fold here, but it still felt like spew. And since you've played me before you know normally I love to spew chips like it my job, so having doubts here lets you know how positive I am that I was [censored].

[ QUOTE ]
just remember, you can't win the pot if you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, this is definatly a philosophy I subscribe to but i'm 100% the optimal amount of hands I should be taking to show down is less than what I currently do.

Do I know who you are? Today was awful and I was gang-banged by several players much better than I am. Glad to hear that I probably made your day :-D

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

i keep my SNs on the downlow on 2p2, but if you want to know just PM me. I play about 25% of the time on AP and 75% of the time on FTP. We've probably played a couple hundred hands together. You might recognize me as the guy that always gets up and tries to move to the good seats.

Re: Ugh. Are the 2nd Nuts ever good here?
 

* g *


There's as many QJ combos as there are QQ combos - although you don't see many preflop caps w/ QJ. But if you add the AA/KK possibilities and you probably are ahead of every one here on the flop.

There's two connected high cards on the paint for very possible straight draws and a flush draw out there. Pump your equity edge! Trap those two extras for more bets! Cap the flop!

This could be what the Villain is thinking w/ his AA/KK/AsKs or AcQc.
I think I'd pump the flop with those hands here.


Call down from the turn 3-bet bar a spade and the extra's waking up.