Too tricky for low stakes?
 

First time posting a hand, definitely won't be my last, as I'm going to be trying to make this game my bread and butter. Card Selection seems to be so key, and alot of low stakes players can't grasp this. Plus my almost unlimited aggression and love of math... its a fun game for me without the heart attacks of Hold'em. Anyway.. on to this fun hand.

I was called a "calling station" after this hand by Villian as he left. While I think it might have been right for the first call.. IDK. He had been losing and entering plenty of pots.. so no real respect here. Here's my thoughts on it...

7 Card Stud High-Low ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

Hero: $8.50
Seat 2: $6.90
Seat 3: $16.05
Seat 4: $3.30
Seat 5: $10
Seat 6: $5.20
Seat 7: $9.85
Seat 8: $13.60

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

I think I have odds here to defend.. and decent doorcard.

4th Street - (4.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

Good low board showing.. I can take the momentum on the next street with the double bet. Seat 6 has bricked and is dead money, imo.

5th Street - (3.80 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls

Representing the wheel, I try to calm them down to take it away on 6th or 7th.. seat 6 is definitely dead (unless trying to make a flush work.) Seat 3 has at most 2 pair. I don't think I caught the case 3.

6th Street - (9.80 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Follow through... I still wondering why seat 6 stays in, but its okay. Maybe they are redrawing and 7th street will bring folds. Lots of chasers fold late.

River - (12.80 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___calls

Full house... bet it out since I have both beat.

Total pot: (15.80 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $7.90 | Rake $0.35
Hero: [2s Kc 2c 4d 3h 4s 2h] (HI: a full house, Deuces full of Fours)
Seat 4: [Ac Ah 3d 3s Td 6h Tc]
Seat 6: [As 8d Ad Kd Jc Qh Jd]
</font>

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

lol, this is sick, i hope site shuffles hole cards

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

you played that bad. You lucked out on the river. Just cause you chased a hand till the river and made a full house does not justify it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
This is a fold 3rd. You are chasing at best two pair or trips on 4th. You are 3 cards to a low and I don't know what you are thinking.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

Well, seeing 234 usually scares the crap out of me, especially since my VP$IP is at 25% at best. It is true that it was bad, I just didn't realize how behind I was. I usually don't play this bad, I swear [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Just seeing which parts were the worse parts for this hand.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

id say 6th when you are nearly drawing dead and have 3 outs.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
id say 6th when you are nearly drawing dead and have 3 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Touché.

General question though: How often can a board bluff work? Or his "crying calling" with 2 pair allowed due to pot odds?

Just did the math... whoops. I guess if he doesn't put me on a wheel (I am agressive, so I doubt he will), his call is perfect. Oh well. Ended up tonight.. so will take this as a lesson and know that I won't get so lucky later on. Thanks for being blunt.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

Fold 3rd. Fold 4th. Fold 5th. Yes, even though you're showing 2-3-4, they're going to put you on a low hand or a low draw, most likely not a made straight, and they're obviously both going high. Neither one is folding to your raise; they figure you're simply pumping a 3-way pot with the expectation to win half. If one of them does fold, the other is going to showdown with you just about 100% of the time, and you can't even beat what Seat 4 is showing.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

Get Ray Zee's book.

Fold third. Fold fourth. Fold fifth. Check sixth and hope that they let you get there for free. K22 is almost never playable. You wouldn't be far wrong if you folded all pairs any time an Ace raised in a non-steal situation.

Your opponent doesn't know what a "calling station" is.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

This is such a clear and easy fold on 3rd. Assuming that your opponents will give you credit for the wheel (exactly A5 in the hole) here is insane... like Jb said, they are both going high and are putting you on a low draw. When they call on 4th you have to put them on 2 pretty legit high hands that they are willing to take to 7th for half the pot. This play doesn't work at any stakes, IMO.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

Yup. Bluffing 2 opponents in a split pot game is suicide.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yup. Bluffing 2 opponents in a split pot game is suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noted. I think the idea of calling in the SB in Hold'em (which I'm finding you also can't do in a split pot game, you won't be good enough to go both ways) carried over here and then I just held on to a bad hand.

I'll definitely look into Ray Zee's book. Thanks.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

er 7th is good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I have odds here to defend.. and decent doorcard.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much doubt that since you're up against an A and often have your pair crushed right out of the gate. There's a big difference going up against two low cards rather than an A when you have a K as a kicker. Suddenly it's *much* easier to suck out on your two pairs.

I think the big feature is that you're going to get your KK22 paid of really good since those hits looks so much like bricks. But it's not like a split pair of 2:s is a good hand in general when up against an A and a low card.

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 6 has bricked and is dead money, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]He's probably got 9 outs against you, how can he be dead money?

[ QUOTE ]
Representing the wheel,

[/ QUOTE ]No you're not. You're just representing any low whatsoever much hope for high. People are going to call that down like 100% of the time if they have anything for high. Your only real chance is if the low-going guy bricked and the other guy just is on a draw. It's not a good spot to bluff.

If you were representing a good low you should have raised 4th.

In fact, the wheel is pretty much the last thing I would put you on since you played the earlier streets so passively. For you to have a wheel you'd have to have started with A52 and just called down on 3d and 4th when both opponents missed their low draws on 4th. And similarly for a 6-high straight, since an aggro player certainly would raise low+straight draw against to busted opponents.

Thinking about it I'd probably raise any 4-low and any pair + 3-low on fourth.

And your outs are horrible, even just against the pair of threes. And since you're not representing anything but a low he's got plenty of reason to call you with anything on the river.

The fact that a 33T bets against a made low is itself telling you that he thinks his chances for high are pretty good. Hence, he's not going to fold. And that AKQ calls him tells you the same thing, but even more so, since he's already seen 33T bet into a probably made low.

Your bet on 6th is even more horrible since you know should know that both guys think they're good enough for high that they could bet and call a checkraise on fifth. Generally speaking that means that they already bury 4422.

7th street, obviously, is well played and I would be proud to make it myself.

Re: Too tricky for low stakes?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, even though you're showing 2-3-4, they're going to put you on a low hand or a low draw, most likely not a made straight, and they're obviously both going high. Neither one is folding to your raise; they figure you're simply pumping a 3-way pot with the expectation to win half.

[/ QUOTE ]I think this is key. What do your opponents think you are doing? You can't bluff at these stakes often, anyway, in this game. You can never get anyone off a high hand if you look like you have a lo hand. Few lo hands are straights, and as a rule, no one will assume you have one.

I don't know if you ever have the odds to call 3rd with a mediocre hand, anyway. No expert, however.