Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

I'm mostly just interested in how to play this river, but feel free to comment on other streets as well.

I have a little history with the opponent. It started when I raised with AK and he called. Flop was K-K-6 with 2 clubs. I bet, he called. Turn was a 7. I bet again and he folded. A couple hands later I raised and he called. A couple other people called behind him and I gave up on the flop.

This was the third time in the span of about 5 to 10 minutes that he called my preflop raise. I sort of had a feeling he was trying to get me back for the AK hand. Of course, this is just a hunch. Maybe he's just a calling station in general. Who knows?

I bet about 2/3 of the pot on the flop, hoping he was the type to insta-donk min-raise, in which case I would come right back over the top. When he called I was assuming an ace, straight draw, or flush draw.

Admittedly, I didn't feel very confident about my bet on the turn. I felt there was a very good chance that I still had the best hand, but for some reason I was afraid of pot-betting and having him shove. Needless to say, I was not feeling great about my idea of how to play the hand on the turn.

The river is my biggest question. If I check, it gives him a chance to bluff, but it's not likely to be a huge bet. If I bet, he is probably not going to fold an ace. He might pay me off with J10 or QJ. In retrospect, I think maybe betting was the appropriate move.

Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, 20/40 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: 3,050
BB: 3,260
UTG: 3,485
Hero (UTG+1): 3,520
UTG+2: 4,560
MP1: 2,845
MP2: 2,105
CO: 6,200
BTN: 3,960

Pre-Flop: (60) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to 125</font>, 2 folds, MP2 calls 125, 4 folds

Flop: (310) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets 200</font>, MP2 calls 200

Turn: (710) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets 400</font>, MP2 calls 400

River: (1,510) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">MP2 bets 600</font>, Hero calls 600

Results: 2,710 Pot

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

raise less pre flop if youre even going to raise this.

bet more of the flop because your hand is worth a lot but likely to be behind an A that calls/raises your bet.
turn is a check although you say you had a read so its not horrible.

river is a check. dont bet this river. he's not folding any A's you've already labeled him a station.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

Flop bet more 300ish, I c/c Turn and C/f river on a blank.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

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raise less pre flop if youre even going to raise this.

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lol 3x the BB is too much eh?

Betting the turn is fine because this guy is dying to make a stand and you're getting paid if you improve on the river. It would be super ghey to get min raised but given read I think it's fine.

Your read is obv the key to what the optimal river decision is but c/c feels dirty.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

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raise less pre flop if youre even going to raise this.

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lol 3x the BB is too much eh?

Betting the turn is fine because this guy is dying to make a stand and you're getting paid if you improve on the river. It would be super ghey to get min raised but given read I think it's fine.

Your read is obv the key to what the optimal river decision is but c/c feels dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, i would bet that a lot of the board would agree with me that 3x utg+1 with KJ is too much.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually, i would bet that a lot of the board would agree with me that 3x utg+1 with KJ is too much.

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Does a lot of the board advocate min-raising? LOL. If you'd rather not open with KJs in early position that's fine. However, I'm not going to raise it to 90 or something like that.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

admittedly the difference between 2.5 and 3bb is small at 20/40

but still you're raising over 3bb with a weak hand OOP

"LOL."

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

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[ QUOTE ]
actually, i would bet that a lot of the board would agree with me that 3x utg+1 with KJ is too much.

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Does a lot of the board advocate min-raising? LOL. If you'd rather not open with KJs in early position that's fine. However, I'm not going to raise it to 90 or something like that.

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You are both wrong, the correct answer is shove preflop... villain will fold his A9o and hero wins the pot [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

tbh I haven't played many tournaments but from what I've read the difference btw 2.5 an 3 bb raises doesn't matter much in these situations. Saving bets at this level is not as important than when you get to the 400bb + levels. Also at lower levels your reverse implied odds are lower as are your commitment levels as it represents a smaller %age of your stack. I'm sure that everyone here knows that and I'm prob stating the obvious.

As for the play, given your read then the flop turn play is ok, if he is calling light then i'd bet the turn as well. But i'm sure there is an argument to pot control as well, i find that i often jam pots against people who hold grudges or are looking for 'revenge' only with strong hands because they may just be trapping. So maybe a check here is good too.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

I would just fold Tiffany's hand KJs preflop in early position with deep stacks.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
admittedly the difference between 2.5 and 3bb is small at 20/40

but still you're raising over 3bb with a weak hand OOP

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this turning into "don't play KJs in early position?" I'm really not interested in a starting hand chart in this case. I know that playing KJs up front is a questionable play. I knew that when I did it. However, I am confident enough in my postflop play not to get in serious trouble. OK guys, I get it. Let's move on.

To me, the flop, turn, and river are the interesting parts of this hand. Can't we just talk about that?

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

PF is fine
flop is fine
turn i bet 600 but a check is fine
then shove any river

if you feel villian is getting frustrated with you and wants to get back at you hes more likely to draw to the flush

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

I don't love/hate the prf raise, but if you're gonna come in, might as well be raising.

Flop bet is fine. I probably make it 250 or the pot. Make it a stiff bet. After he calls the flop I'm slowing down and c/c. His river bet just stinks like a suck bet. Since you think he kind of sucks, he either hit his AJ and he's too dumb to have re-raised the flop, or he's got a bad ace. I'm weakly folding the river.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

Id probably check turn because people never fold Aces there &amp; they don't call with worse so I don't see enough of a reason to bet.
River I'd definitely check/fold he's bluffing almost never there, either very thin value with a decent Ace or betting Aces up most of the time.
Preflop is fine. You can fold KJs there. You can raise it there. If your going to raise 3x at this level is obviously fine &amp; standard.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

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[ QUOTE ]
admittedly the difference between 2.5 and 3bb is small at 20/40

but still you're raising over 3bb with a weak hand OOP

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this turning into "don't play KJs in early position?" I'm really not interested in a starting hand chart in this case. I know that playing KJs up front is a questionable play. I knew that when I did it. However, I am confident enough in my postflop play not to get in serious trouble. OK guys, I get it. Let's move on.

To me, the flop, turn, and river are the interesting parts of this hand. Can't we just talk about that?

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you realize that preflop mistakes get you into the more awkward postflop spots though.

and also you're so confident in your postflop play yet you butchered this hand after the flop

people were nitpicking my preflop comments but said nothing about my postflop comments.. so what's the problem?

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

looks ok...if you can control the pot size I can live with it...

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

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and also you're so confident in your postflop play yet you butchered this hand after the flop


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I was ahead the whole way, I won the pot, and I never put a dime in the pot with the worst of it. If that's butchering, then welcome to the meat market.

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you realize that preflop mistakes get you into the more awkward postflop spots though.


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Yes, of course I realize this. However, I also realize that being an uber-nit has won me zero tournaments. Therefore, I'm trying to open up my game a little bit.

Also, I don't think it's bad to be in "awkward" positions after the flop. It's good practice. If I can learn to handle these awkward spots, I think it's only going to help my results.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

lol @ being results oriented.

im far from a nit but i've also realized that ADVISING people to open wider and putting them in unfamiliar (read: uncomfortable) situations is not the best way to give advice.

so you'll have to forgive me assuming that youre the typical SSMTT poster and im going to tell you to raise less if you even raise at all.

betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.

im trying to say this isnt an awkward spot, and the river call is completely standard because of the bet size.

being an uber-nit is one thing. but being spewy will win you even less tournaments.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir.

By the way, are you saying that it's a good thing that the pot is big on the river? I assume you mean that a big pot is going to encourage the guy to bluff more frequently on the river. I agree that this is good. He doesn't want to give up on a pot he has invested so much in.

However, along the same lines, with a bigger pot, the bluff is going to be bigger relative to my stack. That's going to make it a scary call for me.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
PF is fine
flop is fine
turn i bet 600 but a check is fine
then shove any river

if you feel villian is getting frustrated with you and wants to get back at you hes more likely to draw to the flush

[/ QUOTE ]

play strong cards and cripple him again

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir.

By the way, are you saying that it's a good thing that the pot is big on the river? I assume you mean that a big pot is going to encourage the guy to bluff more frequently on the river. I agree that this is good. He doesn't want to give up on a pot he has invested so much in.

However, along the same lines, with a bigger pot, the bluff is going to be bigger relative to my stack. That's going to make it a scary call for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

eh this is one of the times that you didnt improve by the river
but the fact is a lot of the time you're not going to have just a naked mid pair. youre going to trip up or 2 pair up or flush and so a big pot is a good thing with a hand and a strong draw like this.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

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River: (1,510) 5 (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets 600, Hero calls 600


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FYI he had K10...seems like a pretty weak bluff to me. If he made it 1,000 I almost certainly would have folded.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.


[/ QUOTE ]


This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir.

By the way, are you saying that it's a good thing that the pot is big on the river? I assume you mean that a big pot is going to encourage the guy to bluff more frequently on the river. I agree that this is good. He doesn't want to give up on a pot he has invested so much in.

However, along the same lines, with a bigger pot, the bluff is going to be bigger relative to my stack. That's going to make it a scary call for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big pots may encourage bad bluffs but only a ballsy villian will bluff the river after you fired two bets. Only a really uber ballsy villian would bluff the river after you fired two pot sized bets. And only a uber ballsy really GOOD villian would fire a pot sized blufff on the river when you fired two pot sized bets previously here. A suck bet is not what he wants to bluff with here because too many people call him. So I don't think the pot size matters as much as you may think.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
admittedly the difference between 2.5 and 3bb is small at 20/40

but still you're raising over 3bb with a weak hand OOP

"LOL."

[/ QUOTE ]

3x is perfect in this spot since it's early and stacks are still deep. no one will ever say "man, i wish i had saved those extra 25 chips by 2.5xing it instead." plus being oop is another reason to raise more since sometimes people will throw their hand away for that extra t25. if you only make bigger raises with your real hands, then you're playing super exploitably.

[ QUOTE ]
bet more of the flop because your hand is worth a lot but likely to be behind an A that calls/raises your bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

first off, you're not behind an ace and second, isn't that a reason to bet less?

pokenum -h kd jd - ac 2c -- ad jh 3d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ad 3d Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Jd 505 51.01 485 48.99 0 0.00 0.510
Ac 2c 485 48.99 505 51.01 0 0.00 0.490

[ QUOTE ]
im far from a nit but i've also realized that ADVISING people to open wider and putting them in unfamiliar (read: uncomfortable) situations is not the best way to give advice.

betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.

being an uber-nit is one thing. but being spewy will win you even less tournaments.


[/ QUOTE ]

ok well now you're just saying too many things now. you're "far from a nit" but opening kjdd in ep is spewy? if you advocate smaller raises pf, then why are you telling him to bloat the pot oop postflop? is that not a spew? also, why do you want to charge draws here? villains calling with draws is basically the best thing that can happen here.

on a last note, if someone is trying to develop a laggier style of play, then playing more pots and being in tougher spots is exactly how to get better. harder spots cause people to think, and if they can learn from that, then they're improving. telling people to play in a style where their decisions are outlined for them does absolutely nothing to help them improve their play. that's what this forum is about, not coming in here and insulting posters while giving sub-optimal at best advice.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.


[/ QUOTE ]


This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir.

By the way, are you saying that it's a good thing that the pot is big on the river? I assume you mean that a big pot is going to encourage the guy to bluff more frequently on the river. I agree that this is good. He doesn't want to give up on a pot he has invested so much in.

However, along the same lines, with a bigger pot, the bluff is going to be bigger relative to my stack. That's going to make it a scary call for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big pots may encourage bad bluffs but only a ballsy villian will bluff the river after you fired two bets. Only a really uber ballsy villian would bluff the river after you fired two pot sized bets. And only a uber ballsy really GOOD villian would fire a pot sized blufff on the river when you fired two pot sized bets previously here. A suck bet is not what he wants to bluff with here because too many people call him. So I don't think the pot size matters as much as you may think.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one is talking about calling a pot sized bet on the river here. And we’re not talking about thinking villains here either because obviously if the guy is going to bet after 2 checks then he’s not the type to think about why he bets.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
admittedly the difference between 2.5 and 3bb is small at 20/40

but still you're raising over 3bb with a weak hand OOP

"LOL."

[/ QUOTE ]

3x is perfect in this spot since it's early and stacks are still deep. no one will ever say "man, i wish i had saved those extra 25 chips by 2.5xing it instead." plus being oop is another reason to raise more since sometimes people will throw their hand away for that extra t25. if you only make bigger raises with your real hands, then you're playing super exploitably.

[ QUOTE ]
bet more of the flop because your hand is worth a lot but likely to be behind an A that calls/raises your bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

first off, you're not behind an ace and second, isn't that a reason to bet less?

pokenum -h kd jd - ac 2c -- ad jh 3d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ad 3d Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Jd 505 51.01 485 48.99 0 0.00 0.510
Ac 2c 485 48.99 505 51.01 0 0.00 0.490

[ QUOTE ]
im far from a nit but i've also realized that ADVISING people to open wider and putting them in unfamiliar (read: uncomfortable) situations is not the best way to give advice.

betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.

being an uber-nit is one thing. but being spewy will win you even less tournaments.


[/ QUOTE ]

ok well now you're just saying too many things now. you're "far from a nit" but opening kjdd in ep is spewy? if you advocate smaller raises pf, then why are you telling him to bloat the pot oop postflop? is that not a spew? also, why do you want to charge draws here? villains calling with draws is basically the best thing that can happen here.

on a last note, if someone is trying to develop a laggier style of play, then playing more pots and being in tougher spots is exactly how to get better. harder spots cause people to think, and if they can learn from that, then they're improving. telling people to play in a style where their decisions are outlined for them does absolutely nothing to help them improve their play. that's what this forum is about, not coming in here and insulting posters while giving sub-optimal at best advice.

[/ QUOTE ]
I had a whole thing typed out and it got lost so I’m pretty pissed off but here goes.
you contradict yourself all over the place.
Firstly, you say “oh who cares about saving the extra t25” when on the other hand you say that the extra t25 might cause people to fold? wtf? And I’m raising about 2.5 here with all hands so don’t just go interpolating off of what I say so that its convenient for your [censored] piece by piece analysis of my post.
Secondly LOL @ you picking A2cc when he’s behind AxQd 47% vs 52%. If you know anything about proving by contradiction you’d know that simply showing ONE example of it being false doesn’t mean that it is for all cases. Really, if you’re going to be a nit, then cover your own ass and say that he’s only behind about half of the aces.
Thirdly, he doesn’t just have a naked pair of jacks. He also has the nut flush draw. That’s why we’re bloating the pot because as you’ve showing he’s “ahead” of a lot of the hands that call him anyway, so why not put a lot of money in on the flop when your hand loses a bunch of equity if you miss on the turn.
The turn bet is read based, and I’m saying that if he’s going to bet he should bet more than that if he feels that he is ahead. Which he said in OP and which I said in an earlier reply. If you even read my original reply, I said that the turn is a check. But he said he had a read so why not let him try to go with that develop those skills that involve making thinner bets?
And last, I only started to take a tone and insult people when they did the same to me. I did not just come in off the bat and insult the guy. Other people and the OP both came in and got really defensive and pretty sarcastic and so I replied in the same manner. Also I don’t see you replying to any threads, and actually you didnt even respond to this thread, you just came in here to pop off at me. So if you think you can do better, then actively participate and maybe I’ll take your criticism seriously.

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

if you're "trying to develop a laggier style of play" you should be doing it from late position, not UTG+1, i always thought a successful LAG style involved a lot more abusing position regardless of your cards rather than raising your pretty drawing hands more OOP

and if someone can explain to me why i am wrong i'll be glad to listen, but in my opinion purposely putting yourself in awkward, tough positions in an effort to improve your game is laughably ridiculous...im pretty sure improving your game is about learning how to avoid these awkward positions, not trying to figure out how to squeeze your way out of them while bleeding away the least amount of chips

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.


[/ QUOTE ]


This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir.

By the way, are you saying that it's a good thing that the pot is big on the river? I assume you mean that a big pot is going to encourage the guy to bluff more frequently on the river. I agree that this is good. He doesn't want to give up on a pot he has invested so much in.

However, along the same lines, with a bigger pot, the bluff is going to be bigger relative to my stack. That's going to make it a scary call for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big pots may encourage bad bluffs but only a ballsy villian will bluff the river after you fired two bets. Only a really uber ballsy villian would bluff the river after you fired two pot sized bets. And only a uber ballsy really GOOD villian would fire a pot sized blufff on the river when you fired two pot sized bets previously here. A suck bet is not what he wants to bluff with here because too many people call him. So I don't think the pot size matters as much as you may think.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one is talking about calling a pot sized bet on the river here. And we’re not talking about thinking villains here either because obviously if the guy is going to bet after 2 checks then he’s not the type to think about why he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your not going to even try to understand what I'm posting then why bother responding...

Re: Second pair and nut flush draw OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
betting more on the flop/turn help define villains hand more/charge draws. also it creates a bigger pot for the villain to bluff at on the river as played.


[/ QUOTE ]


This is what I'm looking for. Thank you, sir.

By the way, are you saying that it's a good thing that the pot is big on the river? I assume you mean that a big pot is going to encourage the guy to bluff more frequently on the river. I agree that this is good. He doesn't want to give up on a pot he has invested so much in.

However, along the same lines, with a bigger pot, the bluff is going to be bigger relative to my stack. That's going to make it a scary call for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big pots may encourage bad bluffs but only a ballsy villian will bluff the river after you fired two bets. Only a really uber ballsy villian would bluff the river after you fired two pot sized bets. And only a uber ballsy really GOOD villian would fire a pot sized blufff on the river when you fired two pot sized bets previously here. A suck bet is not what he wants to bluff with here because too many people call him. So I don't think the pot size matters as much as you may think.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one is talking about calling a pot sized bet on the river here. And we’re not talking about thinking villains here either because obviously if the guy is going to bet after 2 checks then he’s not the type to think about why he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your not going to even try to understand what I'm posting then why bother responding...

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, 90% of your post was about how "ballsy" the villain was, and i addressed that.

how about you go more in depth then, since i cant seem comprehend what you're talking about