JJ river play
 

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Full Tilt 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (11.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero ?

Re: JJ river play
 

without any reads, I am not sure how you can do anything but C/C.

Re: JJ river play
 

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without any reads, I am not sure how you can do anything but C/C.

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You can bet/fold, and I think it's better here. Most better hands are going to be bet on this river if you check (QQ and KK will probably bet, and they can be discounted because of the lack of a pf cap). He could easily have a hand like 89, 8T, 99, or TT that will likely call if you bet the river but are never betting if you check. If he has AK or AQ or aces up, you might get raised, but then you have a pretty easy fold.

Re: JJ river play
 

Id bet, id have to have a reason to bet call or ck call the former being more likely to occur

Re: JJ river play
 

I like bet/fold,

Not sure we can narrow his range a whole lot on the turn there are plenty of hands he could be semi bluffing with, so i like the turn three bet. Follow through and bet the river he calls with enough lower pairs to show a profit IMO

Re: JJ river play
 

I bet/call this all day long. I'm really only worred about AdXd showing up here.

The only way I check/call is if I have a note that he is able to be induced a lot and has a low SD%.

Re: JJ river play
 

I like bet/folding on this hand. I only check/call if I think my opponent will make a river bluff on the ace.

Re: JJ river play
 

Villain's name? Your name? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You were probably on my tables tonight. I got murdered.

Re: JJ river play
 

i think river is a b/f, as others said.

but is the turn a clear 3-bet? it feels close to me.

Re: JJ river play
 

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i think river is a b/f, as others said.

but is the turn a clear 3-bet? it feels close to me.

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Agreed. I think it's close, and against an unknown, it would depend on how aggressive the game plays. I would normally lean towards just calling down to the turn raise, but I don't think that 3betting this turn is too bad.

Re: JJ river play
 

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i think river is a b/c

but is the turn a clear 3-bet? it feels close to me.

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Re: JJ river play
 

Bet/folding is horrible in theory.At the poker table it is maybe the best option after all.But I´m not totally convinced.
After 3-betting turn your hand is face up. You have 66-AA and maybe some xdxd hands.If you bet/fold here a thinking villain will Valuebluff raise you all day long.He is getting 12.75:1 putting in the raise if he already intends to call you.And he is getting great odds to raise even if he doesn´t intend to call.Not that I give many villains credit for having the guts or the brain to do it and that often includes myself.
But there is also villains that don´t have brains which raise this river for different reasons and accidentally makes a good play.
Generally speaking I don´t like bet/folding rivers unless our opponent is really predictable or loose passive.
Because if they are we have a player that is stupid enough to call with less than JJ and can at the same time find a relatively safe fold to a raise.
By check/calling we are getting value owned but we see a showdown and occassionally we induce a stupid bluff or a light value bet.

Re: JJ river play
 

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Bet/folding is horrible in theory.At the poker table it is maybe the best option after all.But I´m not totally convinced.
After 3-betting turn your hand is face up. You have 66-AA and maybe some xdxd hands.If you bet/fold here a thinking villain will Valuebluff raise you all day long.He is getting 12.75:1 putting in the raise if he already intends to call you.And he is getting great odds to raise even if he doesn´t intend to call.Not that I give many villains credit for having the guts or the brain to do it and that often includes myself.
But there is also villains that don´t have brains which raise this river for different reasons and accidentally makes a good play.
Generally speaking I don´t like bet/folding rivers unless our opponent is really predictable or loose passive.
Because if they are we have a player that is stupid enough to call with less than JJ and can at the same time find a relatively safe fold to a raise.
By check/calling we are getting value owned but we see a showdown and occassionally we induce a stupid bluff or a light value bet.

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Obviously bet/fold is exploitable. But so is check/call and bet/call and check/fold, if we always do it in this spot. Just because we bet/fold here doesn't mean we have to always bet/fold in this spot. Anyway, I don't think bet/call is bad here at all, and is def. better than check/call here.

Re: JJ river play
 

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Obviously bet/fold is exploitable. But so is check/call and bet/call and check/fold, if we always do it in this spot.

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Every action is exploitable.But if villain would play his hand perfectly bet/folding and check/folding is by far the most costly ones.
If villain plays perfectly he knows that your range is 66-AA.He knows that you´re going to bet/fold river with all non-set hands.I don´t expect anyone to play perfectly but if he does it is a 5/9th pot mistake.

Re: JJ river play
 

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Obviously bet/fold is exploitable. But so is check/call and bet/call and check/fold, if we always do it in this spot.

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Every action is exploitable.But if villain would play his hand perfectly bet/folding and check/folding is by far the most costly ones.
If villain plays perfectly he knows that your range is 66-AA.He knows that you´re going to bet/fold river with all non-set hands.I don´t expect anyone to play perfectly but if he does it is a 5/9th pot mistake.

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Villain is unknown, presumably so are we. Theres no way he knows that we're going to bet/fold JJ here. Do you really expect an unknown to bet/fold JJ in this spot?

Re: JJ river play
 

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Obviously bet/fold is exploitable. But so is check/call and bet/call and check/fold, if we always do it in this spot.

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Every action is exploitable.But if villain would play his hand perfectly bet/folding and check/folding is by far the most costly ones.
If villain plays perfectly he knows that your range is 66-AA.He knows that you´re going to bet/fold river with all non-set hands.I don´t expect anyone to play perfectly but if he does it is a 5/9th pot mistake.

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Villain is unknown, presumably so are we. Theres no way he knows that we're going to bet/fold JJ here. Do you really expect an unknown to bet/fold JJ in this spot?

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As previously stated it is a huge mistake to bet/fold only if villain plays perfectly. But rememeber that you lose 7 BB or something if he plays perfectly and as also already stated many players don´t expect anything since their head is under their arm "Wow an ace I´m going to bluff him".

I have no clue of what villain thinks and that´s why I would like to make the move that costs the least if he doesn´t think or if he is really sharp.

However I´ll admit that I´m a little bit puzzled now when you told me that we really can´t expect villain to bluffraise this river.
It makes your earlier proposal to bet/call seem a little bit strange.

Re: JJ river play
 

Huh? I didn't say villain will never bluffraise the river. I just don't think an unknown will do it often enough to make bet/call the best play.

Re: JJ river play
 

bet call

Re: JJ river play
 

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Huh? I didn't say villain will never bluffraise the river. I just don't think an unknown will do it often enough to make bet/call the best play.

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I just pointed out the fact that it is a paradox to think that bet/calling is the best play and at the same time not think that bet/folding is the by far worst play.

Re: JJ river play
 

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i think river is a b/f, as others said.

but is the turn a clear 3-bet? it feels close to me.

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with no reads, I think it's bad.

The guy can easily have AA-QQ here, and all we really beat is a hand like A8s, or two big diamonds.

Re: JJ river play
 

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i think river is a b/f, as others said.

but is the turn a clear 3-bet? it feels close to me.

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with no reads, I think it's bad.

The guy can easily have AA-QQ here, and all we really beat is a hand like A8s, or two big diamonds.

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Given the preflop and flop action, I don't think AA-QQ is very likely.

Re: JJ river play
 

Tough spot. I agree w/ whoever said basically every line is exploitable. Vs someone I respect I can see b/c cause as noted it's not a bad spot for a bluff raise. By the same token a good player's "worse hand calling range" is pretty narrow (98/K8?). You have to include 9x &amp; busted [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s as part of his range too. I don't really have a big problem w/ the vaginal c/c here vs. an unknown and if I get V-towned by Ax I'll sexy his ass next chance I get.

Re: JJ river play
 

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i think river is a b/f, as others said.

but is the turn a clear 3-bet? it feels close to me.

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with no reads, I think it's bad.

The guy can easily have AA-QQ here, and all we really beat is a hand like A8s, or two big diamonds.

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Given the preflop and flop action, I don't think AA-QQ is very likely.

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are you kidding me?

I can't believe tags haven't figure out to never cap AA and KK in position against other tags. Just call, and call the flop and raise the turn, or just raise the flop and call so you can raise the turn.

If I take this line, I will have JJ beat most of the time.

This is the reason not capping AA here vs. good players is a good play, because you get them thinking, "They can never have AA here, I have JJ, I 3town"

Re: JJ river play
 

At first glance I thought turn was an easy 3bet but since some people disagreed I done a wee stove and here are the results:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,328,535 games 15.819 secs 210,413 games/sec

Board: 3d 7c 8h 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.358% 43.03% 00.34% 1432233 11367.50 { 55+, AdKd, AdQd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdTd, K9s, QdTd, Q9s, Qd8d, Qd7d, J9s, Td8d, Td7d, A9o-A8o, A5o, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o }
Hand 1: 56.642% 56.32% 00.34% 1874557 11367.50 { JcJd }


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349,332 games 3.932 secs 88,843 games/sec

Board: 3d 7c 8h 6d
Dead:

Does this range seem reasonable to you guys? All are within a typical CO opening range IMO

FWIW if i take AA and KK out of his range we get 61% in our favour

I think The Hip has a valid point about some tricky plaers playing aces and kings this way but we dont have any reads in this particular example and IMO its reasonable to assume that a typical unknown opponent caps aces or kings preflop