Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly suck
 

First off, I think I played really well today. Using the forum has been good for me. A couple of days ago I was thinking about situations and something just clicked. Elindauer's posts about ranges and equity have helped a lot. I tried to practice thinking about the game in that way, because it was new to me, at FTP play money tables the past few days (don't laugh). So I was excited to play today. I lost 16 BB, but I was very happy with my play. I was reading ranges accurately and making strong post-flop decisions. I just never got there in the big pots when I was drawing and the field got there in the big pots when they were drawing. Meh, moving on.

I did have two hands that vex me a little bit though. In this first one there is one loose passive player. He's fairly typical except that he will randomly wake up and start betting his own hand instead of checkraise when he has something he likes. Weird. And an older woman who typifies a lot of the players at CP. She's ultrapassive before and after the flop, but will bet top pair hands if checked to. Always checks a flush card. Her preflop opening range is exactly QQ+ and AK suited and offsuit. She limped JJ in MP twice that I have seen and open limped a suited AQ in the HJ.

Hero is SB w/ QdQs

some folds, lp guy calls because he has two cards, passive lady raises, all fold to Hero who threeballs his QQ, both call.

Flop: 4cKc5x

Hero bets, lp still has two cards so he calls, passive lady calls

Should I even be betting this? I beat nothing and tie exactly one combination in her raising range. It feels wrong to not bet, though. I suck.

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The other hand had a live straddle. Straddler is pretty laggy, cold calling a lot but not raising a terribly wide range that I have seen. The lagginess comes in postflop, with any hand that connects reasonably. Saw him limp some real crap in EP a couple times (J8o, and then capped an 8 high flop against passive lady lol, 67o, ragged aces). Passive lady will limp any two broadways, lots of suited trash as long as it vaguely connects (like 74 and whatnot). Both blinds are loose passive as well, but they don't figure into the hand much except for my overlay.

Hero is button with Ah4h

Live straddle, passive lady calls, Hero calls, both blinds call, straddler threeballs, all call

Flop (15sb): Ks6s3h

both blinds check, straddler bets, passive lady calls, hero calls, both blinds call

I'm getting an immediate 17:1 with one overcard and backdoor straight and flush draws. I still don't know whether or not this call sucks. I think it's close as if I do hit the Ace it's likely to be the only one out. Worst case scenario, I'd have to make up, what, like 1 BB even if I'm not being offered high enough immediate odds? I'm also confident that the straddler will threeball anything in his straddle and c-bet the flop. I don't have a lot to be scared of from his hand at least.

Turn (10 BB): Ad

blinds and straddler check, passive lady wakes up and bets, Hero hates his hand and calls. I'm the only caller.

River (12 BB): 7s

passive lady checks because she's scared of her shadow, Hero checks and gets ready to muck because she will show me A9+

If I made a mistake here it's calling on the flop. I think the preflop is a little better than marginally +EV.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly suck
 

Hand 2-Weird that she only checks the river eh? I think the turn peel is okay. She may only have a King here since there were 2 turn checks to her and you only called on the flop. But then again she is passive and players with weak Aces will check here when someone calls their turn bet.

Hand 1-I Had QQ 4 times yesterday in about 5 hours and 3/4 held up. I know what you mean though when you are thinking should I have bet the flop here? In your hand I bet this flop. One flop last night was like 26Ar I just gassed the entire way cause nobody showed any aggression whatsoever. MHIG! It won a huge pot cause it was multi way and I was on the button. You have to figure that with hands like these when we are the PF aggressor and they all check to us on all streets we can't just give them free cards all the time right? I know we hate to bet out when a K or A flops and we are up against passives but also figure that it is going to cost us a few more bets in what will be huge pots if we win cause we are coming in with raises or 3 bets PF. We do win a fair share of these hands. When a passive pumps you on the turn or river then we can change gears. Have to keep reminding myself that big pocket pairs are great hands and they do win a fair share UI.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

Are you sure you read the first hand correctly? Of course the continuation bet is standard, but that isn't my question. This particular woman is so passive that her pf raising range is QQ+ and AK. She was the original raiser and I three bet. This is situational and based completely on my opponent.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly suck
 

i don't like the pf w/a4s

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly suck
 

Sorry, I didn't see her raise PF there. Thought is was a call instead. I still bet the flop then see what happens on da toin. If you had checked the flop and she bets out are you folding this?

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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Sorry, I didn't see her raise PF there. Thought is was a call instead. I still bet the flop then see what happens on da toin. If you had checked the flop and she bets out are you folding this?

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Absolutely. I don't think she'd bet anything I'm beating. Maybe, maybe she had one of those weird random moments preflop and raised AcQc but even then I think it's 50/50 on whether or not she would even bet that if checked to.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

I don't like it on paper either. It was purely situational. I had a straddle, an ultra passive woman and two loose passive old guys in the blinds, one of whom was very, very loose. I wouldn't do it anywhere else but the button. I'm essentially playing against an old lady that will play any two broadways and suited connectors (up to even three gappers), one random hand and two almost random hands. I have to be doing better than 20% equity there, right?

Ok, there's my defense. Is it still bad?

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

Also for the QQ hand, the pot is still small so if she bets out and you give it up no biggie really. Wait for a better spot.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly suck
 

hand 1 c/f the flop.

hand 2 is a super standard flop peel. you are getting 17-1 with a bd flush draw to the nuts, a bd straight draw and a tainted overcard. you have 1.5+1ish+1 for about 3-3.5 outs. you have plenty odds to call and could even consider a raise(though i don't think i would do it given the description of the straddler). i think i would fold the turn.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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This particular woman is so passive that her pf raising range is QQ+ and AK. She was the original raiser and I three bet. This is situational and based completely on my opponent.

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Was she likely to cap AA/KK pre ?
Does she flat call with AK on the flop or raise her TPTK ?

On the flop, against this villain, it is a safe b/f.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

The more I look at it the more I like hand #2. I think you got through to SD rather well.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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Should I even be betting this? I beat nothing and tie exactly one combination in her raising range. It feels wrong to not bet, though. I suck.

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Why even ask? You already know the answer. Check/fold to exploit opponent's terrible play. FYI, your bet is fine from a game-theory POV... you can't be exploited by betting. However, you are failing to exploit your opponent's highly exploitable strategy here, and costing yourself almost a full small bet of profit by doing so. Why break even when you have such a huge and easy profit?


Hand 2: Flop looks like an easy call getting huge odds to continue, especially with the table playing generally very passive, and the aggressor likely to have a very wide range. You should have an easy time getting your SB back with interest on the big streets (don't forget to mix in an occassional steal from the LAG with a hand that has decent equity vs his range considering the pot size).

On the turn, your call is look good considering the pot size as you have lots of outs to chop vs a better ace. If she has A9 for example, you have any 3,6,T,J,Q to chop (20 outs) and of course 4(3) to win. Plus, you are going to play the river almost perfectly (right?).

good luck.
Eric

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly suck
 

yeah, on hand two i just noticed that she could have as weak as A9 here(per your post). you need to call the turn because you have outs to draw. c/f the river UI.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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Why even ask? You already know the answer.

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Because it just feels dirty and wrong not to bet. Why ask? So you can say that to me and drill it into my head. Also, not that it matters but it crossed my mind, I'm essentially playing with my hand face up if I threebang preflop and check the dry K high flop.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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This particular woman is so passive that her pf raising range is QQ+ and AK. She was the original raiser and I three bet. This is situational and based completely on my opponent.

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Was she likely to cap AA/KK pre ?
Does she flat call with AK on the flop or raise her TPTK ?

On the flop, against this villain, it is a safe b/f.

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She isn't going to raise AK if bet into, just call. The only hand she'll raise on the flop is a set and the only set she can have is KK.

I don't know about the capping. Generally when I come across someone this passive they don't cap KK and wait to see what happens on the flop. Some of them even do this with AA but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see her not cap w/ either. Also, capping is rarer preflop at CP because we have a 5 bet cap and the crappy players are leery of putting that much in before they've seen the flop.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Why even ask? You already know the answer.

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Because it just feels dirty and wrong not to bet. Why ask? So you can say that to me and drill it into my head. Also, not that it matters but it crossed my mind, I'm essentially playing with my hand face up if I threebang preflop and check the dry K high flop.

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That only matters if your opponents will take advantage of it!

Yes, check-folding QQ on a K high board is highly exploitable. But that's the point. In this case, YOU are the one doing the exploiting.

Any time you take advantage of your opponent's poor play, you are exploitable. If you use "I can be exploited if I do that, so I better not" as a criteria, you will not make much money in this game.

I do think that it's good to KNOW that you're exploitable though, and to know what you should do against a tough player in this spot! Then you know just how far you are going when you check-fold QQ here (hint: really far)

good luck.
Eric

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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Then you know just how far you are going when you check-fold QQ here (hint: really far)

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I don't understand this part.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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Then you know just how far you are going when you check-fold QQ here (hint: really far)

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I don't understand this part.

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I mean how far away from the "default play" you are going. QQ is nowhere close to a check-fold against tough players. So to fold it, you need a very strong read (which you have).

-eric

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

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I'm essentially playing against an old lady that will play any two broadways and suited connectors (up to even three gappers), one random hand and two almost random hands. I have to be doing better than 20% equity there, right?


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I did a Monte Carlo simulation on PokerStove vs a lineup of one player with a random hand, two players laying the top 75% of hands, and one player playing any pocket pair, any ace, any two broadway, and any suited connectors up to three-gappers all the way down to 52s.

After about 11 M games, your equity seemed to be converging at 21.5%, and you're going to outperform your equity because you have position and hopefully play better than your opponents pre-flop. Tighten up the old lady's range, and you do worse. For example, you get about 20.9% equity if you remove suited connectors with gaps from the old lady's range.

Generally, I think too many players play too loose and too passively against a straddle and I wouldn't mind adopting a raise-or-fold mentality in this spot pre-flop, especially against a straddler who three-balls it liberally (although I might consider call-reraise against a straddler who auto-raises).

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

Thanks for the work. I would have thought my raw equity was higher than that but it's good to know. Of course, my position and skill advantage vs. these terrible players does push my equity significantly higher.

Re: Live straddle with A4s on the button, and QQ in which I knowingly
 

1) Don't over-estimate how much a difference in skill/position causes you to outperform you raw equity.
2) You do have to account for the times that the blinds raise behind you.
3) I didn't figure your equity when only one blind calls you and you find yourself in a four-way pot, which will happen sometimes, or when both blinds fold and you are three-handed.