AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Hero: $223
Villan covers

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $13</font>, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($27.5, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $19</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $47</font>,



What to do here?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

this is a [censored] spot, AQ can be a pain to play. anyhow, i think without reads that villain is a maniac you should let this one go because he isn't doing this with AJ, or &lt;=KK. does anyone have a different strategy for play on this? in 3b pots against normal players, AQ is often a bluff catcher isn't it?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

i let this go also without a read. Villain villain isnt doing this with anything you beat.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

check the flop. as played I guess fold even though it's gross

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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check the flop

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Why?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Tough spot. He's cold called our 3bet OOP which is kinda scarier than him 4 betting. I hate AQ in pots like this, you're gonna beat KK-99, lose to AK and AA, and tie AQ. Him c/r this flop w/ any of those pockets is a bold play. I think I'm calling once and hoping for a hopefully free showdown, which we should get if he's on KK or less. Folding here is also OK. Again some sort of stats on villain would get you better responses.

Hm - I think a check behind might be nice actually. FWIW if we bet flop I'd make it closer to pot ~85%.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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check the flop. as played I guess fold even though it's gross

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Well if I check, that will definatly show weakness, and as you all said my hand is weak here. But if I do check, it gives the pot control his way, and he can be betting with JQ sooted or something, I have no clue where I would be.


Now if I check, he bets 18 or something and turn was a 5, now what am I doing there? Do I call the $40 bet there?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

History is probably the most important piece of information here, of which you have provided none.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Um, would've you like him to be betting QJs on the turn? Why not give him the chance to bluff. Basically no hands you beat are going to be in this hand to call your flop bet. You're either way ahead of way behind. So check the flop and get more value from 99-KK, or let him bluff whatever trash you have. Betting just gets played back at by better hands and lets worse hands off the hook.

Also reads help :P

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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Um, would've you like him to be betting QJs on the turn? Why not give him the chance to bluff. Basically no hands you beat are going to be in this hand to call your flop bet. You're either way ahead of way behind. So check the flop and get more value from 99-KK, or let him bluff whatever trash you have. Betting just gets played back at by better hands and lets worse hands off the hook.

Also reads help :P

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OK thats stating obv. Lets say he bets $40 on turn I call. River is a 2, he bets $100, now what do you do?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Like I said reads will help with this. And I'd prob call turn and fold to a large river bet. If he's aggro and likes to pounce on weakness I'll call the large river bet.

The point is that when the action involves you checking the flop and calling on later streets you're more apt to get money in ahead, as opposed to when you bet the flop and only get played back at /called by better hands. See what I mean?

Betting the flop makes the hand easier to play sure, but it's definitely not the most +EV, I think this is fairly obvios to be honest and I'm not trying to be a douche. I believe without a better read checking the flop here should be standard with a lot of your range.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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Um, would've you like him to be betting QJs on the turn? Why not give him the chance to bluff. Basically no hands you beat are going to be in this hand to call your flop bet. You're either way ahead of way behind. So check the flop and get more value from 99-KK, or let him bluff whatever trash you have. Betting just gets played back at by better hands and lets worse hands off the hook.

Also reads help :P

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Good reasoning. However, what do we do if we ck behind flop, call ~pot bet from him on turn, and then he shoves river? Fold I guess, but its hard to tell w/ no info on villain on whats prolly a pretty read dependent spot.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

I think if you're calling the flop it should be because you plan on playing for stacks imo.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

i think where shpanko is going is that paired board flops are very easy to C/R in his spot. By checking you do not give him pot control because you have position. It simply keeps the pot smaller. I check behind 35% with AQ here depending on villian.

It underreps your hand and he is firing any turn more than likely and you must reason on how much to raise. This gives you pot control back and he cant call unless he really is holding an 8.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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Um, would've you like him to be betting QJs on the turn? Why not give him the chance to bluff. Basically no hands you beat are going to be in this hand to call your flop bet. You're either way ahead of way behind. So check the flop and get more value from 99-KK, or let him bluff whatever trash you have. Betting just gets played back at by better hands and lets worse hands off the hook.

Also reads help :P

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Good reasoning. However, what do we do if we ck behind flop, call ~pot bet from him on turn, and then he shoves river? Fold I guess, but its hard to tell w/ no info on villain on whats prolly a pretty read dependent spot.

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If he bets turn and you call and he shoves river then yeah it's still gonna be a tough spot, but you'll get more money in ahead this way. And I'd prob fold without a read bceause most villains don't have it in them to fire huge bluffs in a RR'ed A high pot. He might bet the turn but I doubt he's bluffing/betting a worse hand for value on two streets.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

i agree shpanko, but why wouldn't you raise a lead on the turn?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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Um, would've you like him to be betting QJs on the turn? Why not give him the chance to bluff. Basically no hands you beat are going to be in this hand to call your flop bet. You're either way ahead of way behind. So check the flop and get more value from 99-KK, or let him bluff whatever trash you have. Betting just gets played back at by better hands and lets worse hands off the hook.

Also reads help :P

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Good reasoning. However, what do we do if we ck behind flop, call ~pot bet from him on turn, and then he shoves river? Fold I guess, but its hard to tell w/ no info on villain on whats prolly a pretty read dependent spot.

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If he bets turn and you call and he shoves river then yeah it's still gonna be a tough spot, but you'll get more money in ahead this way. And I'd prob fold without a read bceause most villains don't have it in them to fire huge bluffs in a RR'ed A high pot. He might bet the turn but I doubt he's bluffing/betting a worse hand for value on two streets.

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Really villain dependent, which is why reads are so important here. This hand could go either way depending on how aggressive villain has been etc

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

why would we raise a lead on the turn?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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why would we raise a lead on the turn?

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Only if we think villain's calling range is &gt; than his river bluffing range which is impossible to know without history, so raising the turn vs an unknown kinda sucks here.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

i think it gives us the most information about his hand...c/r on flop he could have anything...but for him to 3 bet the turn he has to have an 8, nothing else IMO

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

so we turn our hand into a bluff then? Cuz I doubt he's ever calling a turn raise with a worse hand.

You gotta realize that making the hand easier to play is not the most +EV line here.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

raising for information here is stupid and expensive. like everyone has said, no worse hands will call. i like shpankos line, c/c turn, and c/c a reasonable river bet. someone once mentioned AQ is just a trumped up AJ after all, right?

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

im not raising for purely information, our hand is best here ALOT

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

ok if you raise turn then you obviously can't fold to a shove. And tbh I think that's spew without any reads, but whatever.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

I can't say I see the pros of a trn raise come anywhere close to the cons for reasons stated above.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Easy flop check. Fold as played.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

fine, touche

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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Easy flop check. Fold as played.

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Not sure I agree with this really. Checking is fine sometimes, but it's not the only viable line, and not the one I'd resort to most of the time. Mostly because I'm betting here without an ace so much, I need to balance this by having an ace a lot on these boards.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

I don't like the check behind like most posters seem to advocate, because to most thinking players it will look like you have something like you have.

If you bet this flop like you did, on such a cut and dry board I think many aggressive players would be tempted to take it away or test you. I think you can call this raise and proceed with caution, I think re-raising would be a mistake as most probably the only hand calling is one thats ahead, maybe the occasional crying call from a weaker ace.

Like someone else said you'll if you're betting this flop when you miss and checking when you hit, this will become pretty predictable. Also, a read would be very helpful here obviously.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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I don't like the check behind like most posters seem to advocate, because to most thinking players it will look like you have something like you have.

If you bet this flop like you did, on such a cut and dry board I think many aggressive players would be tempted to take it away or test you. I think you can call this raise and proceed with caution, I think re-raising would be a mistake as most probably the only hand calling is one thats ahead, maybe the occasional crying call from a weaker ace.

Like someone else said you'll if you're betting this flop when you miss and checking when you hit, this will become pretty predictable. Also, a read would be very helpful here obviously.

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What weaker aces can he legitimately have here?

I check this flop behind with like 90% of my range. I do it because I can still get value with KK-TT on the turn and river. I also can do this with my aces here, and my bluffs.

I don't see what betting accomplishes, it makes our decision tough on the flop because we're gonna take it down most times, but when he calls, we're gonna be blind on the turn. He's gonna fold to another barrel with his air/underpairs, we don't know what he has, and we're probably gonna check to him and be lost if he bets.

But, we can check (with intention to c/r) on the flop and bet the turn, and either c/c river, or bet the river. It somewhat makes our decision easier, but it also makes his decision a bit tougher when he holds JJ-KK and we bet the turn.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Agree that vs. unimaginative players, or if i have a tighter image than normal, i check behind more often.


But seriously, if you guys are folding stuff like 77, 99 etc IP on boards like this when villain leads (and depending on villain, following it up with a turn bluff) you're not winning nearly your fare share of pots.

Maybe it's just because of my [censored] image, i dunno.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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If you bet this flop like you did, on such a cut and dry board I think many aggressive players would be tempted to take it away or test you. I think you can call this raise and proceed with caution, I think re-raising would be a mistake as most probably the only hand calling is one thats ahead, maybe the occasional crying call from a weaker ace.

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I highly doubt villain is slowing down on this turn, if you call this raise you should be ready to play for stacks on the turn, and I don't think AQ is good here.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Why are we still talking about this hand lol? Betting the flop is ok if you're willing to play for stacks. I specifically advocate checking behind here because we are a bit deep. And whoever said that checking turns our hand face up is being ignorant.

I'm checking this flop with literally my entire range, from air to Ax to AK to 88 to AA to 99-KK, so no checking doesn't reveal our hand. What it does do is incite villain to bluff at the pot on the turn, and keep the pot smaller when we want it smaller. Few hands are going to pay us off here if we bet the flop. One of the few reasons for betting the flop should be to induce a bluff c/r, so if you bet you have to play for stacks, if that's what you want to do fine. But imo checking is far superior here without a read.

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Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

But my point is this is a spot i'm actively playing for stacks because my flop betting range is so wide


Other people may be different

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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Um, would've you like him to be betting QJs on the turn? Why not give him the chance to bluff. Basically no hands you beat are going to be in this hand to call your flop bet. You're either way ahead of way behind. So check the flop and get more value from 99-KK, or let him bluff whatever trash you have. Betting just gets played back at by better hands and lets worse hands off the hook.

Also reads help :P

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how is betting the flop taking away his chance to bluff?

if you believe the above, then fold, because from this quote it's clear that if you have indeed taken away his chance to bluff, then you are boned here.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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Um, would've you like him to be betting QJs on the turn? Why not give him the chance to bluff. Basically no hands you beat are going to be in this hand to call your flop bet. You're either way ahead of way behind. So check the flop and get more value from 99-KK, or let him bluff whatever trash you have. Betting just gets played back at by better hands and lets worse hands off the hook.

Also reads help :P

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how is betting the flop taking away his chance to bluff?

if you believe the above, then fold, because from this quote it's clear that if you have indeed taken away his chance to bluff, then you are boned here.

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This is basically what i've been driving at.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

then I think that's totally fine if that's your plan chaos, still I'd prefer to be a little less deep to be happy about getting it AI, but whatev.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

Ok I still am confused on what you think.

What is the best play here in 1 sentence.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

It depends.

Re: AQ in Re-raised pot
 

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It depends.

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