Folding KK Pre-flop
 

My question is, do you ever fold KK pre-flop?? How tight does your opponent have to be for you to fold KK??

I've dropped 10 buy-ins in last 3 days running KK into AA and I'm wondering if I should have folded some of them. The problem is none of my opponents were overly tight. Some of them had good, solid stats, but not really tight enough for me to fold. At least I thought so anyway.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

I never would. Just bad luck - you'll have AA and run into KK and get it back at some point.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

i will fold it sometimes. very very very player dependent.

will never fold it pf live

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

Well I had 2 situations holding KK and faced AA.
Both times it was obvious the player had a freaking good hand!
I didn't manage to fold and lost 2 buyins.

In the future I am about folding, not preflop but it villians line it to obvious!

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

Please, please, don't fold KK for 100BB. There have been too many discussions about this and you just can't do it.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please, please, don't fold KK for 100BB. There have been too many discussions about this and you just can't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]This is also bs, depends on the player. I fold it sometimes but it is very player/situation dependent. I won't fold it in blind battles, and steal/resteal spots.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

Some of the hands were against solid, good regulars and looking back, they're just not stacking off with anything less than KK+.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
My question is, do you ever fold KK pre-flop?? How tight does your opponent have to be for you to fold KK??

I've dropped 10 buy-ins in last 3 days running KK into AA and I'm wondering if I should have folded some of them. The problem is none of my opponents were overly tight. Some of them had good, solid stats, but not really tight enough for me to fold. At least I thought so anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]


asking this question is too vague without examples, even though the answer is still "don't fold" in 95+% of situations. If you'd like to post <u>specific</u> hands, go ahead and a couple people will type "nh" to make you feel better

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

I fold it if the raise is big enough: Villain opens 5BB, i make it 15, he makes it 100 or more -&gt; I might fold. To reduce the variance [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

Stake and situation dependent of course- but at, say, $1/2, KK is not a hand that you should automatically be wanting to get all in pre for 100BB with.

In a typical "raise, hero 3-bets, villain shoves" scenario- you are -EV to call.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

All these hands were at 100NL btw.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

Here's an example hand. No reads on villain other than he has pretty solid stats.


Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $84.80
BTN: $38.05
SB: $112.50
BB: $82
UTG: $22.10
UTG+1: $103.05
MP1: $158.50
Hero (MP2): $357.75

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP2)
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $5</font>, Hero calls $5, 4 folds, UTG calls $4

Flop: ($16.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $8</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $21</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $34</font>, Hero calls $13

Turn: ($84.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets $40</font>, Hero calls $40

River: ($164.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets $40</font>, Hero calls $40

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

you should fold sometimes, you will get KK vs AA once every 5.5k hands or so, that means you should rarely fold but based on your reads you need to figure out when to fold in that rare occasion.

going AI with KK preflop 'everytime' is a leak, I have tried to get some seriouse discussion going on this issue in the strategy forum as to what stats to look at if you gona fold KKs preflop but got the usual crap like dont ever fold for 100bb, dont let people run you over blahblahblah. everyone just has to develop their own idea to whom and to which stats it should be folded to.

edited to say you played everystreet on above hand horribly....lol not counting the flop raise...

if you ever gona get away from AAs its gona be preflop so 3bet those KKs

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

So fold the turn??

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
So fold the turn??

[/ QUOTE ]move down.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

When I raise with KK I say in the chat "hey, I have KK so I'm calling if you shove" and then if they still shove I can totally fold.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
So fold the turn??

[/ QUOTE ]

3bet preflop and be able to fold KK against a solid player for 150bb effective stacks

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise with KK I say in the chat "hey, I have KK so I'm calling if you shove" and then if they still shove I can totally fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Jamie Gold syndrome? Tell people the truth about your hand, because no one ever believes you.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a typical "raise, hero 3-bets, villain shoves" scenario- you are -EV to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this as you know. Villains show up with QQ and sometimes AK here enough. IME.

Just from a maths point of view: Say at NL$200 with 100bb effective tight/solid UTG raises $8 and you hold KK in MP and 3-bet to $26. Villain then shoves all in and you have a decision for your stack. It's $174 to call and the final pot will be $397 (assuming $3 rake). We have $43.8% pot equity on our call.

If villains range is ONLY AA+KK we are screwed. However, if its AA+KK+QQ we have to call.

If villains range is AA+KK and half the combinations of QQ and half the combinations of AKs then it's about break even.

If villain ever (even rarely) chucks in some AKo or JJ type hands (perhaps he's tilted, perhaps he thinks you are 'at it', etc) then it's a very clear call.

I don't think there are many 4-bet pushers at NL$200 who's range is strictly and ONLY KK+ and for that reason I don't like a fold unless you identify a player that 100% is only playing that range. If you start to throw any combo's of QQ or AKs into the mix and you have to call.

I would also suggest that in the push situation I outline above you are, if anything, more likely to see a hand like AK since a lot of villains flat call a 3-bet with AA on the trap. There is also a very big advantage to them pushing say AKs in this situation.

Put yourself in solid thinking TAG villains position. You raise AsKs UTG to $8 and a solid TAG raises you to $26. What is solid TAG's 3-bet range likely to be? He respects our UTG raise so this is probably JJ+ and AK. JJ he probably mixes up between calling and 3-betting so it's maybe just half the combo's. How does AK fair against that range IF he calls with JJ+,AK+ all of the time we push - it's a 40:60 so we are not in good shape. However, villain won't call a push with all of that that range. He'll almost certainly fold JJ and AK leaving QQ+. Of that there are more remaining combinations of QQ than AA and KK and if he does call with QQ its a 50:50. Furthermore, he might actually fold QQ and, if he's you (;)) he might even fold KK. We are only in truly terrible shape against AA.

In short villain won't have 3-bet here often enough with a hand that can call and beat us often enough to offset the advantage of taking down that $26 without showdown. Essentially UTG hero can use his image and the fact he has the final commitment decision in the hand (very important) to greatly increase the true value of AKs which is why he may well push it.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

kk is foldable preflop in full ring games for 100bb

ive done it at least 10 times.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

Of course it is foldable - you juts need to click the fold button!

How do you know for sure your expectation from folding those 10 times was higher than getting it AI though?

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

because i know those players could only have had AA

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example hand. No reads on villain other than he has pretty solid stats.


Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $84.80
BTN: $38.05
SB: $112.50
BB: $82
UTG: $22.10
UTG+1: $103.05
MP1: $158.50
Hero (MP2): $357.75

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP2)
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $5</font>, Hero calls $5, 4 folds, UTG calls $4

Flop: ($16.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $8</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $21</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $34</font>, Hero calls $13

Turn: ($84.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets $40</font>, Hero calls $40

River: ($164.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets $40</font>, Hero calls $40

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. Please 3bet preflop. The hand plays out totally differently when you do this.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
because i know those players could only have had AA

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in Renton's camp here. If I face a player with ultra-nitty stats, like 9/3, and he pushes over my 3bet all in, to me, it is +EV to fold. I've done it, and I'll do it again. I've done it and had the nit show me his Aces! This is at nl50 btw.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because i know those players could only have had AA

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in Renton's camp here. If I face a player with ultra-nitty stats, like 9/3, and he pushes over my 3bet all in, to me, it is +EV to fold. I've done it, and I'll do it again. I've done it and had the nit show me his Aces! This is at nl50 btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

+1

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've dropped 10 buy-ins in last 3 days running KK into AA

[/ QUOTE ]

wow. this is just you getting the short end of the variance stick. dont let it get to you and make you start second guessing yourself.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a typical "raise, hero 3-bets, villain shoves" scenario- you are -EV to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this as you know. Villains show up with QQ and sometimes AK here enough. IME.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably one of the most productive posts about AA vs. KK I've read.

As for myself, I agree with your explanation and what Dan Harrinton says in HoH. It's interesting that even with people who fold KK pf based on reads, they never comment on the fact that their "read" might be wrong. Of course, they are always upfront with the fact that nits always show them AA, but what about the times they see nothing? Assuming this is still an amazing read, even w/o seeing the cards, isn't reasonable in my opinion and a positive selection bias with respect to the times AA was shown is obviously going to be in effect. What about the times the guy shows a total bluff when you laid down the KK? Or a weaker hand that AK even?

just my two cents.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

There's a certain percentage of the time that your read can be wrong and a fold still be the best play. This depends on stack sizes and how much money you've already put in, i.e. pot odds. In a tournament, you're almost always getting such great pot odds that if villain ever doesn't have AA, you're making a mistake. The same cannot be said for 100BB cash games.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

I remember I once incorrectly laid KK down preflop and villain turned over Q10o for a total bluff. I felt like such a spaz.

I also think friedace has a point about the positive selection. There is - understandably - a smug factor when you fold KK and a nit shows AA for whatever reason. However, the vast majority of the time you never see what villain is hiding and no matter how strongly you feel about it you can't be 100% sure he's always returning two aces to the deck.

Ironically the only way to get reliable data would be to deliberately felt KK when you would have otherwise folded it and record the hand villain had, the pot and the outcome. Now repeat many thousands of times (think how massive your overall hand sample would be for that!!!) and report back.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
My question is, do you ever fold KK pre-flop?? How tight does your opponent have to be for you to fold KK??

I've dropped 10 buy-ins in last 3 days running KK into AA and I'm wondering if I should have folded some of them. The problem is none of my opponents were overly tight. Some of them had good, solid stats, but not really tight enough for me to fold. At least I thought so anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
How many buy ins have you won with KK vs QQ, JJ, TT and AK , AQ...thats the tradeoff.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

I think if you go all in pf with KKs everytime than you have a leak. you must be able to fold KKs sometimes, I myself look at AF and the PFR stats to see if I am gona fold it to a big 4bet, and AF is more important IMO

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many buy ins have you won with KK vs QQ, JJ, TT and AK , AQ...thats the tradeoff.

[/ QUOTE ]For some reason I think this is very wrong. Some players will be bad enough to show up w/AK/JJ but others will not go broke w/o at least KK+. Just need a read to fold.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

In one of Phil Gordon's books he says something like "The 4th raise is always aces." I think he's right.

So, if you are deep enought to raise, get reraised, you raise again, and villain pushes, then you can fold KK if villain is a reasonably good player.

100bb effective stacks, however, aren't really deep enough to get away unless you have a good read on a particular player. With a read, you can fold KK quite easily. But you need a lot of history with the player to make the fold a good play. And it needs to be the kind of player who won't pick up on your ability to fold KK to his AA only to have him start doing the same thing with AK on occasion. There are plenty of uber-nits, however, that would ONLY ever push preflop with AA and vs them you can fold KK even in a 100bb game.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

I can fold it preflop no problem. It is very situation and player dependent. Oftentimes it is difficult because by the time you figure out he has AA then you only have about 20bb left in which case you won't fold it. But I think that it is possible in situations to fold KK preflop and make it +EV. Of course, there are many who disagree with this.

I'd never fold KK in a tournament.

Re: Folding KK Pre-flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
100bb effective stacks, however, aren't really deep enough to get away unless you have a very good read on a particular player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only read the first page and the last and nothing in between, and my first impression is there´s way too many answers not mentioning stack sizes.