Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

The MP is a huge fish, the spewtard fish at the table. I'm running kind of loose because of this, like 22/15/2, I haven't gotten involved in too many big pots so far. Main villain is a seemingly solid TAG who over the few hundred hands I have on him is running like 22/17/2.5. Hasn't really gotten out of line so far, I saw him bluff raise the fish on an A22 tt flop with 66 and call a river bet against the fish'es 77. Anyway turn is standard I think, river???!?!?!


Full Tilt Poker, $1.50/$3 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $893.50
MP: $342.40
CO: $361.90
BTN: $588
SB: $339.80
Hero (BB): $625.60

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, MP calls $3, CO calls $3, BTN calls $3, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $30</font>, MP calls $27, CO folds, BTN calls $27

Flop: ($94.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $60</font>, MP folds, BTN calls $60

Turn: ($214.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $140</font>, Hero calls $140

River: ($494.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $315</font>, Hero?

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

I fold this river. He would never bluff imo and i just dont see himvalue betting too many hands which you beat

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

oh and pfr was for isolation and value vs MP, I was surprised when button came along

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

Fold. Your turn call signals you have at least an ace, IMO. I dunno that he'd try to push you off that. You beat 98 or a pissed off 76 only. I don't think he'd bet this with non-FH Ax lower than AT and he'd probably be raising AT preflop.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

Anyone else? I don't think this is a simple spot [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

fold...

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

Ugh, I probably call this when I'm at the table, but thinking about it now a fold has to be the better play.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

problem is you beat 8 combos, probably 4, so call it like 6 which he prob wouldnt play like this anyway. fold

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

folding and liking it

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

I think its actually pretty close but as long as you think he views you as being fairly solid its a fold.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

Tough hand but I think its a fold on the river too.

A 22/17 *should* be raising all PPs and Ace face preflop. So that leads me to think hes got a suited connector with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s

That would explain the call on the flop (set just might play it more aggressively on the flush draw possibility), bet on turn. Hes vbetting river hoping exactly you have AJ-AK...

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

so not one person thinks I should call here?

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

What makes turn c/c standard? My impulse is to bet out.

FWIW, I'd fold as played. One thing that makes it hard IMO is the turn check. It plants the seed of weakness in his head, which, I suppose, is why you checked in the first place. But now that you've got him thinking that way, he's pretty much forced to bet the river, regardless of his holding. So, I don't know, he's bluffing here sometimes, but as others have stated, based on combos of a reasonable range that made it to the turn, it's prolly not often enough to call.

My take on his range: 54s, 89s, Axs, 66, 77, 76s, clubs. I'm not sure to what extent, but we have to discount 66/77/76s due to flop call and Axs due to trn+riv bets, right? I guess it could be close.

Also, this deep, how much stock do you place in his preflop action to narrow his range?

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

i think you need some history/reads to call this. But right now you have no reason to think he's bluffing and i don't think he's valuebetting worse often enough to call.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

People agree that turn c/c is right correct? This deep I see no reason to bet this turn.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

agreed

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

[ QUOTE ]
People agree that turn c/c is right correct? This deep I see no reason to bet this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing at all, I'm uncomfortable playing this deep and obviously over my head, but if you would, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

By the turn you're less than 2psb from being in, and considering the way the pot got bloated, it shouldn't really play as deep as it seems, right? I know it's not exactly the same, but would you be as hesitant if it were simply a raised $3/$6 pot w/ 100bb stacks?

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

Well if he's floating we want him to make his bluff, if he has a flush we don't want to bet ourselves off our hand. Betting again kind of overrepps our hand. Only hand we're giving a free card too is a straight draw.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

[ QUOTE ]
...Betting again kind of overrepps our hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to beat it to death, but I guess what I'm worried about is that you may have underrepped your hand and invited this river bet. Thus, making it tougher to fold your likely loser.

Also, being out of position sucks.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

I think it should be pretty obvious I have an A when I bet into two people on an A high pot in a RR'ed pot

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

K, guess this isn't going to get any more attention. So...

Mind Freak!!!11!! I was the villain in this hand and was bluffing. I knew villain had an A and trust me I usually am not in the business of trying to get people to fold trip aces, but I had respect for his game and we were pretty deep so I went for it. Nat he basically insta-called the river [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

I can’t possibly think of a hand a “solid Tag” overlimps with this deep in position after a spewmonkey uberfish enters the pot. WTF? I would honestly think this was quad Aces if you didn’t have one yourself. It’s just [censored] weird.

I also can’t imagine what he’s comfortable valuebetting that big on the end with other than 66/77/ maybe NF (KTs???). I guess your c/c on the turn – check on the river make it pretty obvious that you don’t have a boat – so perhaps that gives him more comfort in betting a non-nut flush this hard on the river.

While I have a hard time putting him on a hand, this is deep and people used to 100bb stacks do strange things here. I think this is rarely a bluff and fold.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

Guess I was wrong. Might reconsider the "solid tag" moniker after that one. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

lol I'm def a solid tag and definitely rarely try to pull off huge bluffs 200 BB's deep. Glad most people agree that villain should fold though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

so are you calling PF with like 5c4c?

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol I'm def a solid tag and definitely rarely try to pull off huge bluffs 200 BB's deep. Glad most people agree that villain should fold though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah - you definitely are - though it could just be because you pick up monsters against my bluff shoves everytime. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

Ahhh now I think I know your FT sn

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh now I think I know your FT sn

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought I'd give you a clue. If you do - don't tell. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

what did you even have to bluff here? 78o? or a pure float?

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

56, so not a totally pure float

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

These types of plays remind me of going home with whomever happens to be left at the end of the night. It seems like a good idea up front, like it's an an affirmation of your clever prowess or something. Then, usually en route, reason starts to work, but only vaguely through a fog of beer, testosterone, pride and whatnot. Next thing you know, you've got some stinky fat tongue in your mouth and you're balls deep in a monster pot, but it's too late and you're basically [censored]. Then it's over, and you lie there wondering why the [censored] you bother with this [censored]?

Interesting thread, thanks for posting.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

[ QUOTE ]
These types of plays remind me of going home with whomever happens to be left at the end of the night. It seems like a good idea up front, like it's an an affirmation of your clever prowess or something. Then, usually en route, reason starts to work, but only vaguely through a fog of beer, testosterone, pride and whatnot. Next thing you know, you've got some stinky fat tongue in your mouth and you're balls deep in a monster pot, but it's too late and you're basically [censored]. Then it's over, and you lie there wondering why the [censored] you bother with this [censored]?

Interesting thread, thanks for posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLOLO

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol I'm def a solid tag and definitely rarely try to pull off huge bluffs 200 BB's deep. Glad most people agree that villain should fold though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That in itself doesn't make it a good bluff to try to push a TAG off an ace here. Think about how often posts are made here where people are like "man I really want to hero fold this but at the table I prob just call" - well, villain was at the table.

Another consideration is that it's slightly difficult to put you on a hand. Are you really betting the river for 1 buyin with a flush? Are you really flatting a drawy flop with a set or two pair?

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

I'm prob not flatting the flop with a set or two pair no, but I'm betting any flush here on the river for a BI yes. So I guess my range is kind of narrow. However, the most likely hand I'm going to have given pf is a suited connector so it's not too bad.

Re: Trips deep vs solid tag, ugh
 

I was gonna say exactly what goofyballer said. What was ommited from my earlier response was even though its probably best to fold at the table in the heat of battle i probably end up calling some of the time. I mean if the guy is even tilting a very very small amount he's not gonna fold this. Even though he has tag stats you don't know him well enough to say if he even ever folds this.