An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Market
 

One interesting aspect about Harrahs opening up a poker site for non Americans is, in my opinion, the psychological effect of a major company in essence making the statement that the internet law is wrong. At least as far as poker is concerned. And that most American's agree with them.

You can't just say that Harrah's is going into a business that that can get away with legally. Big American companies are taking a major risk if they do that. Philip Morris isn't in the marijuana business in Holland. Elite Modeling agency doesn't provide 14 year old escorts in Thailand.

Presumably if something is immoral in the US, we should consider it immoral everywhere. If it is illegal here and not there, our lawmakers will usually say that the foreigners are just wrong. That's all hogwash of course but major corporations in this country rarely want themselves beeing seen as disagreeing with that. Earlier MGM sort of did what Harrahs is planning but that was before the federal law came down. I believe Harrah's actions at this point in time can have much greater impact and implications.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

I agree

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

That's exactly why PartyPoker, part of a publicly traded firm, will never be back in the US, IMO

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Glad you are posting, David. Especially about something other than Absolute. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I have many conservative/Christian friends and even THEY think the law is stupid.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Market
 

I don't think your post makes any sense, David. Harrah's is in the gambling business, which many Americans feel is immoral. I am unaware of any morality distinction that has been drawn between Internet gambling and casino gambling.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

BTW, I agree with your assessment and contrast of Philip Morris:Marijuana market in Holland.

The sad truth is, while both laws make both activities JUST as illegal as the other....we all know full well that the $3billion in annual tax revenue that online poker will generate, if nothing else, will have online poker in the US back in full swing WAY before we have coffee shops in the U.S. selling blunts next to the black/white cookies.....IMHO

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your post makes any sense, David. Harrah's is in the gambling business, which many Americans feel is immoral. I am unaware of any morality distinction that has been drawn between Internet gambling and casino gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, same could be said for the tobacco/marijuana analogy. Good post, David.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Awesome, lets continue to let major corporations dictate the laws and policy of our country. If online poker becomes legal again, I'd prefer it be because of a more grassroots effort by poker players and the American people at-large acknowledging that it is ridiculous rather than because major companies can make more money. This will be awesome, they will have McDonald's ads on the hole cards and every time I win a hand it will ask me if I would like to purchase something.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

You think the Congress is going to decide in favor of the players because Harrah's decided to open their online room first to the UK? ay yi yi

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

It was bigger news when Yahoo did it. Yahoo had never been in the gambling business previous to them entering.

I am really not sure that you can draw any conclusions other than the fact that they want to have a store opened just in case and the cost of entry to online just wasn't that high.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

I believe it is a subtle psychological effect that has a chance of turning into something. Harrahs themselves may not even have thought about it. But they will have to the first time a reporter says to Jan Jones something like "So do you disagree with the US Congress that online poker is bad for people? Or is it that you just don't care what happens to foreigners?" Or something to that effect.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Market
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your post makes any sense, David. Harrah's is in the gambling business, which many Americans feel is immoral. I am unaware of any morality distinction that has been drawn between Internet gambling and casino gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about the no moral distinction but casino gambling is legal in the US. Go re-read the marijuana analogy, sums it up pretty well.

Do you know of any US businesses that knowingly engage in something that is considered legal in that area but illegal in the US (besides Blackwater)?

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Market
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your post makes any sense, David. Harrah's is in the gambling business, which many Americans feel is immoral. I am unaware of any morality distinction that has been drawn between Internet gambling and casino gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about the no moral distinction but casino gambling is legal in the US. Go re-read the marijuana analogy, sums it up pretty well.

Do you know of any US businesses that knowingly engage in something that is considered legal in that area but illegal in the US (besides Blackwater)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Casino gambling is legal in very few places in the US, it is illegal in the rest due to morality issues. US businesses used to engage in bribery all the time overseas, it was only when overseas bribery was outlawed in the United States that they stopped doing it (at least as much). Every US company produces goods overseas so that they can do so in countries without minimum wage laws, child labor laws and stringent environmental regulations. US companies engage in price-fixing in countries where the practice is not banned (and in many where it is as well). I'm sure there are 10,000 other examples out there.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Glad you are posting, David. Especially about something other than Absolute. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I have many Christian friends and even THEY think the law is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah like Daniel Negreanu, Jerry Yang, and Chip Reese to name a few. Lots of christians don't see anything wrong with playing poker.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am unaware of any morality distinction that has been drawn between Internet gambling and casino gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is way wrong.
You might not have seen it but it's definitely been out there imo.
Some of the politicians think it is really incorrect to let people gamble in the privacy of their own homes on these horrible unregulated sites that can allow kids and where you can 'click your mouse, lose a house'.
They argue that the land-based casinos in the U.S. are somehow better because they are tightly regulated with gaming-commissions, watch for problem gamblers, don't allow in underage gamblers, etc.

Furthermore, many of the people who have problems with online-gambling are most concerned about the sports-betting.
Land-based casinos are legal in many many states now but sports-betting is only legal in Nevada.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am unaware of any morality distinction that has been drawn between Internet gambling and casino gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is way wrong.
You might not have seen it but it's definitely been out there imo.
Some of the politicians think it is really incorrect to let people gamble in the privacy of their own homes on these horrible unregulated sites that can allow kids and where you can 'click your mouse, lose a house'.
They argue that the land-based casinos in the U.S. are somehow better because they are tightly regulated with gaming-commissions, watch for problem gamblers, don't allow in underage gamblers, etc.

Furthermore, many of the people who have problems with online-gambling are most concerned about the sports-betting.
Land-based casinos are legal in many many states now but sports-betting is only legal in Nevada.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm aware of these arguments, they are not a "morality distinction". OP was based on morality, which is why I took issue with it.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Market
 

[ QUOTE ]
One interesting aspect about Harrahs opening up a poker site for non Americans is, in my opinion, the psychological effect of a major company in essence making the statement that the internet law is wrong. At least as far as poker is concerned. And that most American's agree with them.

You can't just say that Harrah's is going into a business that that can get away with legally. Big American companies are taking a major risk if they do that. Philip Morris isn't in the marijuana business in Holland. Elite Modeling agency doesn't provide 14 year old escorts in Thailand.

Presumably if something is immoral in the US, we should consider it immoral everywhere. If it is illegal here and not there, our lawmakers will usually say that the foreigners are just wrong. That's all hogwash of course but major corporations in this country rarely want themselves beeing seen as disagreeing with that. Earlier MGM sort of did what Harrahs is planning but that was before the federal law came down. I believe Harrah's actions at this point in time can have much greater impact and implications.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats not illegal [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Market
 

BILL FRIST (R-TN)
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Lori

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Lol, he found a way to work young girls into his analysis.

GG David

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]


You can't just say that Harrah's is going into a business that that can get away with legally. Big American companies are taking a major risk if they do that. Philip Morris isn't in the marijuana business in Holland. Elite Modeling agency doesn't provide 14 year old escorts in Thailand.


[/ QUOTE ]

David,

Would the Philip Morris Amsterdam division or the Elite Model Thailand division make over 2 million dollars a day?

There is a lot more reward considering the risk.

-Joe Tall

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Elite Modeling agency doesn't provide 14 year old escorts in Thailand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust Sklansky, he knows.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Only way that works is if Harrah's is an admired company, like, for example, Starbucks, which provides health insurance for its employees. As far as I know, Harrah's does not command the same level of respect, and anyway, it's a gambling enterprise - the idea that they would want to expand into areas where online gambling is legal wouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. So I think David is overstating the impact this will have.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

I agree w/ David.

I can't wait till US sites are legal, gonna be like Christmas every day.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Presumably if something is immoral in the US, we should consider it immoral everywhere

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree w/ David.

I can't wait till US sites are legal, gonna be like Christmas every day.

[/ QUOTE ]

it might give me the incentive to drop out of school for a third time!!!

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm aware of these arguments, they are not a "morality distinction". OP was based on morality, which is why I took issue with it.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know exactly what you mean then.
Don't some people think it's morally acceptable to have legalized gambling as long as it is controlled and regulated within the US?

Some of the people who thought it was so immoral to have internet-gambling within the U.S. feel it's okay to have the carve-outs for the horse-racing stuff over the internet.
I guess I don't truly know whether they think the horse-racing stuff is somehow less immoral but that appears to be the case to me.

In other words, I've heard some of the Christian groups railing against the immoral and illegal internet-gambling sites but they are not screaming about the land-based casinos within the U.S. so I thought it was reasonable to deduce they are more comfortable with them.

I don't think they are just ignoring the land-based casinos just because it would be impossible for them to shut them down. I truly felt many conservatives had come to terms with land-based casinos and don't consider them to be as immoral as they perhaps previously did but they still have big issues with the internet-gambling stuff.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Does Harrah's entering the online poker market come as a surprise to anyone? I sure hope not. As you may or may not know Harrah's contributed about 50K to Senator Bill Frist's campaign. So the racket goes like this: Harrah's throws Bill 50 Gs to tack on a [censored] anti-online poker act onto an already passing bill. Online poker gets booted from the states. Harrah's now enters the market as a legit taxable company. The US gets god knows how much money from a regulated online poker industry. I know most people already knew this was gonna happen but for those who didn' there you go.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree w/ David.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Market
 

I guess many don't understand how much money is involved for Harrahs and MGM; outside US alone. If China or Asia countries trend up in personal computer usage, its not close.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Asia for the most part is a big untapped market for online gaming in general.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Is Lori's post old news? I didnt know that and really thought it would draw at least some controversy. Exciting implications etc etc.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[censored] christians

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

A US-based company entering the online market adds credibility in the eyes of US citizens and lawmakers. This is good.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can't just say that Harrah's is going into a business that that can get away with legally. Big American companies are taking a major risk if they do that. Philip Morris isn't in the marijuana business in Holland. Elite Modeling agency doesn't provide 14 year old escorts in Thailand.

Presumably if something is immoral in the US, we should consider it immoral everywhere. If it is illegal here and not there, our lawmakers will usually say that the foreigners are just wrong. That's all hogwash of course but major corporations in this country rarely want themselves beeing seen as disagreeing with that. Earlier MGM sort of did what Harrahs is planning but that was before the federal law came down. I believe Harrah's actions at this point in time can have much greater impact and implications.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'd have to be insane to really believe that double-standards about which industries can do what where aren't out there. Sure, Philip-Morris doesn't sell marijuana in Holland, but Nike and hundreds of other companies employ 13 year old slave laborers in Indonesia, Bangladesh, and so on. American companies routinely farm out labor to countries that don't have our same labor laws, laws which were presumably founded on a moral principle of treating workers right.

Secondly, the analogies are flawed beyond this point. Philip-Morris is a gigantic corporation. Growing and distributing marijuana in Holland at a scale relevant to their corporate earnings would be nearly impossible. Marijuana is grown by small operations working in houses, basements, garages and, in the case of very organized operations, perhaps small warehouses. We're not talking about endless fields of marijuana where the crop is being harvested by the ton. In the case of Elite Modeling Agency and escorts, as far as I know, they don't provide escorts anywhere. They're a talent agency, not an escort agency. It's not part of their business model to provide an escort service anywhere, be it Las Vegas or Thailand. You might as well say that because Nationwide Insurance doesn't provide 14 year old escorts in Thailand that it's a big deal for Harrah's to enter the online gaming market. Well, it's not, because Harrah's is a gaming corporation that is updating its gaming operation for the 21st century.

There's nothing worse than fallacious arguments coming from a self-proclaimed master of logic. All that said, it could be a good thing (for professional poker players) that Harrah's is entering the online gaming market, even if just overseas. It means they'll start using their lobbying muscle to open up their online operation to the American markets, which means maybe we'll see a form of domestic, legalized poker in America in our lifetimes. Or, at the very least, a relaxing of the internet gambling restrictions we currently have. But, isn't this exactly what everyone has been predicting for a long time? The American gaming companies are among the greediest companies in the world. Of course they're going to want to add the multi-billion dollar online poker revenue stream to their own land-based casino earnings.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nike and hundreds of other companies employ 13 year old slave laborers in Indonesia, Bangladesh, and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is a good counter-point.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Maybe OT but marijuana is not legal here in the Netherlands.

It is allowed to smoke, grow (a few plants in your home), posess and sell marijuana in small quantities (up to 5 grams to customers), but only because the government officialy chooses to not enforce the laws prohibiting it. Bigger trade/production is illegal and actively prosecuted.

If it actually would be completely legal, I doubt tobacco firms wouldnt get into it one way or the other.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Great explanation as to way the marijuana analogy is faulty.
I'm sure Phillip-Morris has contingency plans for legalized marijuana in the US. There's simply no reason for them to acknowledge it at this time.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nike and hundreds of other companies employ 13 year old slave laborers in Indonesia, Bangladesh, and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is a good counter-point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this actually true? I have a hard time believe the slave part is true. I think 13 year olds should be able to work if they really want to.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this actually true? I have a hard time believe the slave part is true. I think 13 year olds should be able to work if they really want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's how it works. A 13 year old from a poor family in Bangladesh is under tremendous pressure to work, so that his impoverished family can afford rice and, if they're lucky, some lentils. He goes to find a job, let's say, in the gravel mining sector. He sees that there's an opening, but sees too that he'll need tools, a shovel and a pick, in order to join the workforce. The trouble is he can't afford a shovel or a pick, so he takes a loan from the management to buy a shovel and a pick. He then starts work, never to realize that the interest on the loan is accruing faster than he can save money from his $0.25/hour wage. If he doesn't pay off that shovel and pick, he'll be fined further or, worse, imprisoned (or so he is told). And so, there you go, a 13 year old boy turned slave. This is just one example, but I've read about others, and it occurs across industries. You can be certain that virtually every product you buy from Bangladesh for cheap has come from a factory where child labor, and probably child slave labor, has been used in its manufacture. Likewise, you can be certain that virtually every piece of chocolate you eat that originates from Africa has also been brought to you by way of child slave labor. It's a world-wide epidemic in the third-world, but we don't really hear much about it, because we're too busy being jerked around by a government that wants to keep us safe from internet gambling.

Re: An Important Point About Harrahs Entrance Into The Online Poker Ma
 

Wasn't Sands (whatever they are called) the first ones to announce this, almost a year ago now? What ever came of that?