Liberty Dollar office raided
 

I doubt the government will even send a thank you letter for all this sweet treasure.

This was a link sent to me by Nielso, so thanks to him for that.

It's very sad that the government can come into these people's homes and tons of their gold, silver, and platinum. Is there something to this story that I am missing? Or is it really just more government endorsed theft?

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

I own about 300 liberty dollars worth of silver certificates. I feel like I've just been stolen from. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

Raiding a company that they suspect are issuing their own coins as a "legal tender" in violation of the law is quite different than randomly confiscating peoples minerals for no reason whatsoever.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

ZOMG ur gonna lose ur platinum grillz!!! Awesome. Now Nielsio can troll by proxy. No one's home got raided; it was a strip mall business in IL. The US Mint:

[ QUOTE ]
Under 18 U.S.C. § 486, it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law. According to the NORFED website, "Liberty merchants" are encouraged to accept NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions and offer them as change in sales transactions of merchandise or services. Further, NORFED tells "Liberty associates" that they can earn money by obtaining NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions at a discount and then can "spend [them] into circulation." Therefore, NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions are specifically intended to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with the circulating coinage of the United States. Consequently, prosecutors with the United States Department of Justice have concluded that the use of NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions violates 18 U.S.C. § 486.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, in before ZOMG Ron Paul conspiracy!

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

I don't think I would admit to being Neilsio's proxy OP starter within earshot of iron.

edit: falcon beat me to it

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
ZOMG ur gonna lose ur platinum grillz!!! Awesome. Now Nielsio can troll by proxy. No one's home got raided; it was a strip mall business in IL. The US Mint:

[ QUOTE ]
Under 18 U.S.C. § 486, it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law. According to the NORFED website, "Liberty merchants" are encouraged to accept NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions and offer them as change in sales transactions of merchandise or services. Further, NORFED tells "Liberty associates" that they can earn money by obtaining NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions at a discount and then can "spend [them] into circulation." Therefore, NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions are specifically intended to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with the circulating coinage of the United States. Consequently, prosecutors with the United States Department of Justice have concluded that the use of NORFED’s "Liberty Dollar" medallions violates 18 U.S.C. § 486.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, in before ZOMG Ron Paul conspiracy!

[/ QUOTE ]
And this is a good thing?

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

OK, let's hear it. Pros/cons of private currency in the US today.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, let's hear it. Pros/cons of private currency in the US today.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pro, it can exist without the same inflation problems that our currency has.

Pro, people have the freedom to earn their capital in any means they see fit.

Pro, backed by accountable people.

Con, you can't use it at wal-mart.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pro, backed by accountable people.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is going to be a problem. Define "accountable people" please.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pro, backed by accountable people.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would probably be prudent to wait and see what the Liberty Dollar guys got raided for before lauding their accountability.

edit: wtf falcon stop posting so fast

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pro, backed by accountable people.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is going to be a problem. Define "accountable people" please.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, if we are in a situation where people can make their own currency this is what an accountable person would be for that. Someone that I could directly punish by not using their currency and moving my business to another currency place. Then I could write in my blog telling people about my horror story with this old currency provider that mass produced their currency and based it upon nothing and continually tried to make me poor by making the currency I got from them worthless. Then more people would know about it and the old place I got my currency from would have to think twice before they decide to run a currency system that does not benefit the people who use that currency.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pro, backed by accountable people.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would probably be prudent to wait and see what the Liberty Dollar guys got raided for before lauding their accountability.

edit: wtf falcon stop posting so fast

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not saying the liberty folk are accountable people. They hypothetically could be, they have a better shot at being accountable than other systems that exist today.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, if we are in a situation where people can make their own currency this is what an accountable person would be for that. Someone that I could directly punish by not using their currency and moving my business to another currency place. Then I could write in my blog telling people about my horror story with this old currency provider that mass produced their currency and based it upon nothing and continually tried to make me poor by making the currency I got from them worthless. Then more people would know about it and the old place I got my currency from would have to think twice before they decide to run a currency system that does not benefit the people who use that currency.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if your business goes belly up from this bad currency? What if the currency only goes bad because I do an awesome job of making counterfeits? Should the US courts be responsible for enforcing laws wrt your private currency problems?

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, if we are in a situation where people can make their own currency this is what an accountable person would be for that. Someone that I could directly punish by not using their currency and moving my business to another currency place. Then I could write in my blog telling people about my horror story with this old currency provider that mass produced their currency and based it upon nothing and continually tried to make me poor by making the currency I got from them worthless. Then more people would know about it and the old place I got my currency from would have to think twice before they decide to run a currency system that does not benefit the people who use that currency.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if your business goes belly up from this bad currency? What if the currency only goes bad because I do an awesome job of making counterfeits? Should the US courts be responsible for enforcing laws wrt your private currency problems?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only to the same extent they want to take it upon themselves to arbitrate any private property/contractual disputes.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if your business goes belly up from this bad currency?

[/ QUOTE ]
You move to another currency. What do you do if your business goes belly up due to the only currency available going bad? Where do you move then?

[ QUOTE ]
What if the currency only goes bad because I do an awesome job of making counterfeits?

[/ QUOTE ]
You move to another currency. What do you do if the only currency goes bad because someone is awesome at making counterfeits? What if making counterfeits was legal for some institutions? Where do you move then?

Also, currency providers would be aware of this problem and work hard to ensure that it is very hard if not impossible to make counterfeits.

[ QUOTE ]
Should the US courts be responsible for enforcing laws wrt your private currency problems?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the US courts enforce laws wrt any other private business, why not private currency business?

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
Under 18 U.S.C. § 486, it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law. According to the NORFED website, "Lib

[/ QUOTE ]

it's just a total effort to keep the monopoly the powers have on money.

it's pretty clear that statute applies to counterfeiting not somethingn like the liberty dollar.

what that means is that liberty dollar guys can ultimately win in court almost certainly if that is it (maybe patriot act and stuff might make stuff like this semi illegal money laundering or someting though),

but the big boys have decided to put them through the wringer figuring they can nip this in the bud through force fraud and intimidation (isn't that terrorism?), kinda like the job they did on e-gold.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

I guess I'm going to have to stop posting the link to their website as proof that alternate currencies are legal. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Although, given the similarities their currency has to dollars, it could be argued they were counterfeiting.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

You can't move to another currency if your business has gone belly up. How are these private currency companies turning a profit?

Edit: These are all just hypothetical questions about what might happen with private currency in today's US.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can't move to another currency if your business has gone belly up. How are these private currency companies turning a profit?

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe not, but having just one currency doesn't eliminate this problem, it only makes it worse, because other people cannot learn from your mistake and move to another currency and you cannot do so in the future with your new business.

And those companies turn a profit by having a spread between the ask and bid price of their currency. Of course, due to competition, this spread will shrink over time until it's as small as possible.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm going to have to stop posting the link to their website as proof that alternate currencies are legal. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't really know why the FBI raided the office; it may not be because the FBI is asserting that alternate currencies are illegal. Second, the raid is obviously going to be challenged, so the FBI is going to have to defend itself and it's decision to raid.

In other words, I'm not sure why we're automatically concluding that alternative currencies are illegal merely because the FBI raided this office. It's just as possible these guys were defrauding their customers or failing to pay their taxes, or were suspected of violating some other law. Or maybe the feds got over aggressive.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
Although, given the similarities their currency has to dollars, it could be argued they were counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you know what counterfiting means.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

It just occurred to me that this might be a good thing for libertarians. A big part of what allowed the Administration to get away with things like datamining is that no one wanted to go to court to stop them. The case law was ambiguous so people would just cooperate rather than fight. If this winds up in court and the government loses, it will bring publicity to the cause of private money and establish its legality.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

Interesting Wiki on Boggs notes. I think I saw this guy on a PBS special on counterfeiting. I was shocked people would take his hand drawn art as money, but it turns out to be a good deal.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm going to have to stop posting the link to their website as proof that alternate currencies are legal. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Although, given the similarities their currency has to dollars, it could be argued they were counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is private tender legal or illegal in the US? Alot of times during currency debates, people claim that it is legal. I'm confused [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

Well, the Liberty people had a quote from a Mint representative saying that it was legal, but I just read in this thread that the DOJ said its illegal. Before the Fed, most currency was privately issued. Under modern rules, the issue is apparently unclear and will have to be settled in court.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

I would guess that, in light of the upcomming inflation of the US dollar, the government will do whatever it can to squash private money. Otherwise, it won't be long before no one is using US dollars.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

This topic came up on a mailing list I'm on, which is populated by people who are generally pretty smart. The topic of course wandered over to pros and cons of a gold standard in general, when this exchange came up:

[ QUOTE ]
>Something else to consider that the gold-backers must have an answer
>for: there is a finite amount of gold, and my bet is that its current
>value is drastically less than that of the global economy.

Another problem related to this is the 'value' of a countries economy. The UK for instance gathered a lot more gold and silver to it long ago than the US which is much younger. If we are stuck with the 'gold' standard then UK's value would always be greater than US and UK citizens would retain stronger buying power despite inflation because their 'gold' backed value would almost always be greater than a US citizen with the same relative amount of wealth. They have more gold per citizen so each citizen benefits from that. Of course no one in the US would be able to purchase US goods so their economy would collapse.

[/ QUOTE ]

The standard "zomg we'll run out of money" thing, which I addressed, but this follow-up left me completely flabbergasted. I asked the poster to elaborate and explain wtf he meant, but I haven't heard back yet. Anyone have any idea what he's talking about here? It seems he's trying to equate savings with production, on an aggregate scale (big fallacy there), and on top of that I think he's way off on his estimates of how much bullion the UK has in the first place (didn't they basically drain the treasury during WWII?).

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
The standard "zomg we'll run out of money" thing, which I addressed, but this follow-up left me completely flabbergasted. I asked the poster to elaborate and explain wtf he meant, but I haven't heard back yet. Anyone have any idea what he's talking about here? It seems he's trying to equate savings with production, on an aggregate scale (big fallacy there), and on top of that I think he's way off on his estimates of how much bullion the UK has in the first place (didn't they basically drain the treasury during WWII?).

[/ QUOTE ]

his fallacy is thinking that everying is gold backed. like a skyscaper would have to have a ton of gold somewhere. the only thing that has to be gold backed is the currency.

also commercial paper wouldn't have to be gold backed, so you could still do your billion dollar deals without even bringing gold into it. I mean, look at a big takeover or something, usually it is for mostly stock (*sometimes all stock), and just a bit of cash.

off top of head could be wrong i guess.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

pvn,

Can you or some other Liberty dollar type currency supporter tell me why one would risk holding such certificates, that seem to be at risk from the US gov't, instead of just holding gold? While obviously paper or e-currency *if it is safe* (or more worthy than fiat currency), is more convenient, surely one can keep the bulk of such holdings in safe deposit boxes.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

this is disgutting. Can one single statist on here justify why this is even slightly a good idea?

What does this say about the government?

I beg of someone to please answer.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is disgutting. Can one single statist on here justify why this is even slightly a good idea?

What does this say about the government?

I beg of someone to please answer.

[/ QUOTE ]


Same "reason" as why it was unpatriotic during WWII to hoard your cash instead of buying war bonds. You're supposed to be willing to sink or swim with the other members of your collective instead of seeking only your own self-interest.

Financial ruin to the unpatriotic liberty dollar hoarders! In fiat currency do we trust!

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewr...es/016933.html

Link to search and seizure warrants.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is disgutting. Can one single statist on here justify why this is even slightly a good idea?

What does this say about the government?

I beg of someone to please answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uniformity of currency facilitates trade. Probably some other reasons, too.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to barter with whatever they want, but it's not pointless craziness, nor is it a conspiracy to keep the masses down.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
pvn,

Can you or some other Liberty dollar type currency supporter tell me why one would risk holding such certificates, that seem to be at risk from the US gov't, instead of just holding gold? While obviously paper or e-currency *if it is safe* (or more worthy than fiat currency), is more convenient, surely one can keep the bulk of such holdings in safe deposit boxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't hold these particular certificates, mostly because various government agencies have been hounding them for a while. Should have seen this coming.

That said, I do own some gold, and a portion of it is basically "virtual" in shares of GLD (where it's impossible to actually get the physical gold). This is mostly because it's a total pain in the ass to buy gold inside of an IRA.

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
pvn,

Can you or some other Liberty dollar type currency supporter tell me why one would risk holding such certificates, that seem to be at risk from the US gov't, instead of just holding gold? While obviously paper or e-currency *if it is safe* (or more worthy than fiat currency), is more convenient, surely one can keep the bulk of such holdings in safe deposit boxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never owned any money through liberty dollars, but I scanned over their site a few times, it looked like they were setting up agreements with stores/chains where they would accept liberty dollars in exchange for goods. This would be pretty good if you could have 100% of your money in metals instead of having to keep X% for your monthly nut in US$.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

"it's pretty clear that statute applies to counterfeiting not somethingn like the liberty dollar."

Uhhh no its not, since there are other statutes that deal with counterfeiting.

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
"it's pretty clear that statute applies to counterfeiting not somethingn like the liberty dollar."

Uhhh no its not, since there are other statutes that deal with counterfeiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just talkking about § 486, it's talking abuot counterfeiting, go up one level to chapter 25.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/486.html

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pro, backed by accountable people.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is going to be a problem. Define "accountable people" please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it amazing how the actual instability and/or uncertainty of the liberty dollar comes not from unaccountability on the part of those issuing the currency, but from government interference...

Re: This just in, government owns your gold and silver
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if your business goes belly up due to the only currency available going bad? Where do you move then?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1366/acoffeetm6.jpg

Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is disgutting. Can one single statist on here justify why this is even slightly a good idea?

What does this say about the government?

I beg of someone to please answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, as I was saying to CaseClosed, it's probably a good idea to, you know, wait until the guys get charged with something before getting your hackles up.

Anyway, these guys are apparently going to be charged with mail fraud and money laundering; although the warrant to authorize the raid obviously isn't very specific. My guess is the feds will either accuse these guys of defrauding customers -- because I'm taking a shot in the dark that Liberty Dollar currency, while 'backed with a metal', probably does not have a value anywhere close to its claimed specie content; obviously there's going to be a markup, but who knows, the feds might claim there's fraud going on here -- and I suppose the mail fraud charge is because Liberty Dollar is using the US Postal Service to engage in that fraud (if that's really what's behind the mail fraud charge). Or perhaps they're going to make a counterfeiting charge of some sort (although I don't know how that would fall under USC 982). Or who knows, perhaps there's some other unknown reason -- or like I said earlier, maybe FBI is overaggressive and invented a reason. These are just guesses on my part.

Again, though, the posted link is about anyone outside of the FBI has to go on right now, so getting indignant and demanding answers and justifications from internet posters who don't work for the FBI probably won't get you anywhere at the moment:

http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/p...t_20071114.pdf

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8...2cc5ds7et8.jpg