Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

Villain is efficacy - PS 5/10

I open CO with KdQd, he 3-balls (like he does) OTB

Flop is T9xdd.

what should my plan be against someone who will fold a better hand rarely/never?

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

If you dont fold better hands you should just c/c.

If you c/c and showdown you might wanna give it a pop the next time.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

cap pre?

I think you should c/r for value because you're ahead of all of his hands except for KK AA 99 TT

yes you are even ahead of QQ and are only a 45/55 dog to KK AA. you have 33% equity vs a set

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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Villain is efficacy - PS 5/10

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Fold preflop, he runs too good.

No, but seriously...

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I open CO with KdQd, he 3-balls (like he does) OTB

Flop is T9xdd.

what should my plan be against someone who will fold a better hand rarely/never?

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Funny, I got in a ton of spots like that last night with him. After trying a bunch of things that failed for different reasons, I found that the best way to play OOP with a board like this is to play super straight-forward. He will 3-bet a c/r with A-high so often that you're better off just check-calling. If you make your flush draw, I would donk the turn, but if you make your straight, I would checkraise. If you make a pair, check-call again and possibly donk the river depending on what it is. My thought process there is if you donk a turned top pair, he will raise all his better hands and fold all the hands that are drawing dead or to 2 outs.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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He will 3-bet a c/r with A-high so often

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lol really?

also i just don't see how you can't checkraise this hand on the flop.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

get ur money in on the flop, dont bother betting the river unless an 8 falls or u improve.
Ur implied odds arent really hurt by jamming the flop since there are other stron draws you could have when jamming.

Plus these are great flops to cap flop then c/r blank turns with monsters.

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 56.204% 53.38% 02.82% 54432 2879.50 { KdQd }
Hand 1: 43.796% 40.97% 02.82% 41779 2879.50 { 77+, A9s+, KJs+, ATo+, KQo }

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

Ya of course you should just jam here.

I take it back and I need to stop being nitty in these spots. I think its a leak of mine

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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He will 3-bet a c/r with A-high so often

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lol really?


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Yeah. For some reason he likes to keep initiative in position on drawy boards when he thinks your range includes a lot of draws.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

does he bet the turn w/ these ace high hands?

i bet he waits until the turn to pop good hands.

if he bets the turn with these ace high hands, then his turn betting range after 3-betting the flop is probably weighted heavily enough that you can c/r/call flop, c/r turn and get him to fold enough to turn a profit.

if he checks behind the turn with these ace high hands, then awesome, i got to the river for less than i would have if he just called the flop c/r.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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He will 3-bet a c/r with A-high so often

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lol really?


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Yeah. For some reason he likes to keep initiative in position on drawy boards when he thinks your range includes a lot of draws.

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lol really?

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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if he checks behind the turn with these ace high hands, then awesome, i got to the river for less than i would have if he just called the flop c/r.

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I hate that you bring this up, but good point nonetheless. I <3 that the "I'm going to unwittingly pwn myself w/ a free card 3bet" move is like the most overused play ever.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

i did think that was a pretty Odd thing to say (or thing for you to do).

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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He will 3-bet a c/r with A-high so often

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lol really?

also i just don't see how you can't checkraise this hand on the flop.

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The flop is a pretty easy C/R, I might even cap the flop if he 3-bet (though I don't think efficacy is 3-betting me with A hi as much as he does PJ, because I own him, LDO) - the problem is the turn - C/C is weak and let's him play the hand perfectly. But if I bet when I miss, I'm going to get raised a ton...

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

once he 3-bets i don't see why you would cap unless he's going to have and fold a hand like AK/AQ/AJ or completely overplay overpairs thinking you have top pair. if he will raise/calldown a diamond or J turn if you cap the flop, then it's probably worth it, especially if he actually folds the turn some % of the time after you cap the flop.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

You have to bet though. One, to protect the times you have 99 or AT or whatever. Two, to further credibly rep something for the river bet when you don't improve (i.e. if you check the turn to him, you give up on any chance of taking the pot from AJ). Third, even if you get raised, you have >25% equity vs. AA, so you're not losing that much.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

If he 3-bets AK on the flop and calls down a cap UI, lol. I don't play these games but WTF are you guys doing on stars?

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

it's like the old times we used to play 0.25/0.50 2+2 games on party but now it just happens every hand between these guys.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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if he checks behind the turn with these ace high hands, then awesome, i got to the river for less than i would have if he just called the flop c/r.

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I hate that you bring this up, but good point nonetheless. I <3 that the "I'm going to unwittingly pwn myself w/ a free card 3bet" move is like the most overused play ever.

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haha, i remember talking with you about this back in the old party days. After that, I tried a few different defenses to the ol' UI-overcard-flop-3-bet and I think I decided that capping the flop and leading the turn is better. So I'd do that with all decent draws and top pair+. Sometimes stuff like 2nd pair A/K-kicker. People would see I could have a pair in that spot so they started giving up on the turn with their overcards. Waiting to c/r the turn to raise is too risky cuz they used to rarely bet unless they had top pair.

Nowadays, tbh, when ppl 3-bet me on the flop in Stars 10/15/30 games they almost always have a big draw or 2nd pair+. They still try it in FR games and live though.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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If he 3-bets AK on the flop and calls down a cap UI, lol. I don't play these games but WTF are you guys doing on stars?

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I was thinking the same thing. 3-bet A high in that spot? If I wanted to go for a raise I'd do it on the turn as a FSD raise because I'd also play all of my pairs that way.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

A-hi 3-betting a drawy board in position HU is so ridiculously standard in the Stars 5, though moreso when I c/r from the BB vs. a stealer.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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A-hi 3-betting a drawy board in position HU is so ridiculously standard in the Stars 5, though moreso when I c/r from the BB vs. a stealer.

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It must be a level thing then, because I hardly ever use or see that move. So the line is 3-bet the flop, bet safe turns and check behind the river? I guess it's cheaper than raising the turn.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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Yeah. For some reason he likes to keep initiative in position on drawy boards when he thinks your range includes a lot of draws.

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lol really?

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You weren't doing this? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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Yeah. For some reason he likes to keep initiative in position on drawy boards when he thinks your range includes a lot of draws.

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lol really?

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You weren't doing this? [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

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pls show me an example.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

Whats retarded is if people do it on drawy boards..

cause you can get capped with a draw or a made hand (putting you on a draw), plus you have like - fold equity.

The A hi 3-bet in position is retarded and makes no sense unless someone will fold a better hand... which is never.

The only reason you want to 3-bet these hands in position is if you KNOW you are beat but they will very unlikely cap, so you can take a free card AND FOLD THE RIVER.

Sethy, I cap flop and check the turn...
But I balance my play by taking this line with monsters too so... I dont really care taht much when they bet.

If efficacy really takes the 3-bet flop line with A hi on the worst board to do it, then please cap the flop and bet the turn.

I doubt he's raising one pair on the turn after you cap the flop.

Re: Flop big draw OOP, no fold equity(?)
 

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pls show me an example.

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I was thinking of this hand:

PokerStars $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#FF0000">MP raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">MP bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero caps!</font>, MP calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

Results:
<font color="#FFFFFF">
MP shows As, Kh (high card Ace).
Hero shows Js, Tc (high card Jack).
Outcome: MP wins 9.90 BB.
($3.00 Rake)
</font>

But it turns out this was a different 2+2er who should never be calling me down with A-high here (since I've never bet the river with worse until this hand) and even said "gift" in the chat before paying me off.

Also, wow I played this hand so badly. At least I was right that he had AK.