25nl: WTF???
 

ummm what? wtf do i do. he is 40/7 and gets outta line alot. hes crazy peeps, idk what range to assign, its only been about 15 hands with him. but wtf

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Hero ($55.95)
SB ($43.30)
BB ($44.57)
UTG ($105.08)
MP ($103.20)
CO ($16.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1.

Flop: ($3.85) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $22???? or folds??? wtf yo</font>

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

Looks like a bet an overpair would make. I would fold only because BB is behind. If it was headsup I'd probably call off one street.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

if you truely think he is crazy then you should get it all in, but i don't think you can expect to be much more than a 1.5:1 favorite against his range.

edit: nm i didn't see you were deep and so was he. i think you should just call if thats the case.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

I would fold this since you are so deap. That said this bet surelly looks like A5 56 too me. But I dunno and I wouldnt wonna risk it with this hand this deap

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

if i call what do i do on a blank turn?

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

I screw up in this spot a lot. I tend to go after bad players with bad hands and loose big pots. If you look at this you have a small overpair and a straight draw that would need 4 cards from the board to complete a straight. This is such a weak hand and you are definitely not getting odds to draw. I fold and wait for a bigger hand tobust the maniac.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
if i call what do i do on a blank turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

what is a blank in your opinion?
you either make a straight or the board pairs which could give villain trips or an overcard hits

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i call what do i do on a blank turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

what is a blank in your opinion?
you either make a straight or the board pairs which could give villain trips or an overcard hits

[/ QUOTE ]

well i think calling is horrible for this reason, but say 9h

if i had to give a range it would be any pair+6, any sole6, 22-88, AJ-AK

oh yeha and ANY fd

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

If a "blank" 9h hits and he checks (don't know if it's likely) you would have to bet big or give a free card - I don't like either with such a weak hand.

If he bets the 9h on the turn around PSB or perhaps overbets you still have to fold.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

easy fold, your equity vs his range is gross.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

meh - you are about a 40/60 dog vs most ranges. The absolute worst hand for you he can possibly have here is A2dd. to which you are a 22/78 dog.

You can either fold and keep hold of your stack - or push.

Pushing is +EV (but only just) as long as he folds ~8 times/100. he has air way more often than that I think - will call sometimes behind - and we will hit our draw and beat pretty much all of his range fairly often I think.

Calling would suck as if you hit the straight it puts 4 toa on board - you will almost always be facing a bet on the turn regardless of what hits and have to fold if you whiff the turn, and if you make a set there's a chance villain made a straight at the same time...

If you like to gamboooool - push. Tho I'd usually fold here having invested so little in this pot already lookng at not much better than a coinflip in equity.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

I raise here every time. If he has strictly an overpair, we are 40% with our 10 outs twice. If he has a straight we're a little less, but we're still in decent shape. Factor in the times that they fold and I think we're good enough to raise/call.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
ummm what? wtf do i do. he is 40/7 and gets outta line alot. hes crazy peeps, idk what range to assign, its only been about 15 hands with him. but wtf

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Hero ($55.95)
SB ($43.30)
BB ($44.57)
UTG ($105.08)
MP ($103.20)
CO ($16.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1.

Flop: ($3.85) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $22???? or folds??? wtf yo</font>

[/ QUOTE ]k given that he sucks and stuff i think he has an overpair here like always. and given that he sucks he doesnt fold 77+ here like ever so given that we prolly have 10 outs and are not getting enough odds to raise here. so i prolly just dump it here and look for a better spot to stack this retard

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise here every time. If he has strictly an overpair, we are 40% with our 10 outs twice. If he has a straight we're a little less, but we're still in decent shape. Factor in the times that they fold and I think we're good enough to raise/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You noticed he overbet the pot 2.5 times ? to a normal donkbet I raise, here I fold.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise here every time. If he has strictly an overpair, we are 40% with our 10 outs twice. If he has a straight we're a little less, but we're still in decent shape. Factor in the times that they fold and I think we're good enough to raise/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You noticed he overbet the pot 2.5 times ? to a normal donkbet I raise, here I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his range weights more towards draws by betting huge.. honestly, I don't mind a shove even though we're deep.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

call.

shoving is horrible

call&gt;fold&gt;shove

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

In a vaccuum I might fold but in reality I'd raise big (25ish) because I want to get AI on the flop, NOT the turn, and call a push just because I really want to know what he has. Sets should be out of the question so we're not going to be in that bad a shape. Add in a few FD's and some bluffs and it's EV+. Seriously though, his bet is too gay for me to ever lay this down and calling is bad as we only have 8 clean outs and aren't getting the odds for that (we hit about 1/6 on the turn, 6*$8=$48, really pushing it as he might fold when the board becomes a 4-straight) so I'll definitely raise big and call a push.

EDIT: Didn't read this: "he is 40/7 and gets outta line alot. hes crazy peeps, idk what range to assign, its only been about 15 hands with him. but wtf".

Now it's an even clearer raise/call AI situation, I'm sure our equity is positive here.

A+ for metagame purposes also because it'll be really interesting to see what he has!

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a vaccuum I might fold but in reality I'd raise big (25ish) because I want to get AI on the flop, NOT the turn, and call a push just because I really want to know what he has. Sets should be out of the question so we're not going to be in that bad a shape. Add in a few FD's and some bluffs and it's EV+. Seriously though, his bet is too gay for me to ever lay this down and calling is bad as we only have 8 clean outs and aren't getting the odds for that (we hit about 1/6 on the turn, 6*$8=$48, really pushing it as he might fold when the board becomes a 4-straight) so I'll definitely raise big and call a push.

EDIT: Didn't read this: "he is 40/7 and gets outta line alot. hes crazy peeps, idk what range to assign, its only been about 15 hands with him. but wtf".

Now it's an even clearer raise/call AI situation, I'm sure our equity is positive here.

A+ for metagame purposes also because it'll be really interesting to see what he has!

[/ QUOTE ]
post more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy fold, your equity vs his range is gross.

[/ QUOTE ]

generally I would agree, but this is a player that will stack off w/ an overpair even 200bbs deep. You can def call one street here. fwiw, I hate raising. Agreed with speedlimits, call&gt;fold&gt;shove.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
easy fold, your equity vs his range is gross.

[/ QUOTE ]

generally I would agree, but this is a player that will stack off w/ an overpair even 200bbs deep. You can def call one street here. fwiw, I hate raising. Agreed with speedlimits, call&gt;fold&gt;shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't call here, you're not getting the odds! He bet $8 and we have 54ish left and there are 8 clean outs for us (2d and 7d are kinda iffy) meaning the turn gives us the "nuts" 17% of the time so for a call to be EV0 we need to make at least $47 (pot+money on later streets) (ok I'm skipping the decimals here, error margin something below $1) each time we hit which probably isn't going to happen with 4 cards to a straight on board most of the time. I just don't see him going broke with 4 to a straight if he has an OP which he'd need to do the majority of the time for a call to be justified. The only reasoning for a call would be if you knew BB just calls and even then it's very questionable. Besides, we don't know if he'll stack off with 99 200bb's deep, we're just assuming he hates money. I wouldn't be too sure about him having an OP here either...

Either we fold or gambool and I'm not nitty enough to ever fold here.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
and call a push just because I really want to know what he has.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
A+ for metagame purposes also because it'll be really interesting to see what he has!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically the number 1 reason I was a breakeven/losing player for my first 100k hands.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

does no one seem to believe this bet makes his range primarily full of air, fds or 46/56?

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
does no one seem to believe this bet makes his range primarily full of air, fds or 46/56?

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is what I think. I think flush draws w/ overs, pair+SD, and air are a big part of his range. It just looks like the way a moron would play a bluff/semi-bluff. Unless I'd seen him bet the nuts this way before, I'm raising.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

raise/call push

high equity, bad implied odds, get it in. He may well call/push with a 5 anyway.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

i don't get why this isn't a turbo muck.

edit: this ^^^ was a grunch, i was guessing because of thread length there was some debate. i think like one person other than me has said fold. i really don't get it: we have 8 outs and maybe the best hand now, but he's just overbet the pot by more than 2x on the flop so we've got no pot odds and probably not the best hand.

can someone run me thru the justification for a call based on implied odds?

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't get why this isn't a turbo muck.

edit: this ^^^ was a grunch, i was guessing because of thread length there was some debate. i think like one person other that me has said fold. i really don't get it: we have 8 outs and maybe the best hand now, but he's just overbet the pot by more than 2x on the flop so we've got no pot odds and probably not the best hand.

can someone (US) run me thru the justification for a call based on implied odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

pertaining to turbo muck, anytime there is an oppurtunity to remove 200+BBs from a monkey, i will consider all aspects

I personally dont get calling, i have to throw it away on a blanked turn and have thrown away 8 bucks without getting any information. Those saying raising is dumb seem to imply i have 0 FE. its def not 0 but i guess it could be considered low.

I dont get an overpair or a set or a str8 making this kind of a bet, so all that is left is hands i have A)dominated or B) a flip against.

against a monkey sitting deep i feel more inclined to raise because of this

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get an overpair or a set or a str8 making this kind of a bet, so all that is left is hands i have A)dominated or B) a flip against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be comfortable raising this if I had a more specific read about what villain overbets with than just that he's out of line, especially since if you only have 15 hands on him you've really only seen 6 or 7 hands. I don't see how you can be confident about assigning a range for this unorthodox bet with so little information, and I'd rather not have to commit two stacks to find out.

So I would normally fold, take a note, watch him with a hawk-eye and find a better spot to relieve him of a stack.

Edit: hallucinated and thought this was 50NL for a sec.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

initial reaction was why on earth would we want to stack off for 200BB's on a coinflip gamble against a player described as a lagfish. After reading this whole thread I still feel the same way. Seriously people, we are flipping with his range at best and we've invested 5BB's in the pot, why on earth would we want to gamble for over 200BB's? This is a completely unnecessary high variance play that we should be avoiding.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
initial reaction was why on earth would we want to stack off for 200BB's on a coinflip gamble against a player described as a lagfish. After reading this whole thread I still feel the same way. Seriously people, we are flipping with his range at best and we've invested 5BB's in the pot, why on earth would we want to gamble for over 200BB's? This is a completely unnecessary high variance play that we should be avoiding.

[/ QUOTE ]agreed. no one has yet to explain why he doesnt have an overpair or better here almost always. i seriously dont think villians do this with random draws almost ever unless u have a much better read that he is a complete tard maniac.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

Fold it and waitforabetterspot :/

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
does no one seem to believe this bet makes his range primarily full of air, fds or 46/56?

[/ QUOTE ]
I shove and expect to be ahead a good % when called.

Please please please never flatcall, calling this flop is throwing money out the window. If you think he's going to get this out of line on the flop with a worse holding, then he's going to get out of line on the turn too. Calling to c/f if we miss turn is horrible; if we're convinced we're behind, then we should fold, otherwise shove.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

Some of you are saying raise now and get it all in as soon as possible, yet say that a call is gross.. I don't get it?

If you have any FE now and feel you are likely ahead, then just calling and jamming the turn should be fine as well. Really, what scare cards are there for you? If he has an over pair (like 88 or whatever), there are a bunch for him, not to mention that if we do decide to wait and raise the turn, it makes our hand look even stronger and we'd probably gain more FE.

Also I think our implieds are bigger than what most people seem to think. Yes, if a 2 hits, he is gonna shut down because we can easily have an Ace... but if a 7 hits, do you really think he is slowing down or not stacking off if that was his intent? I mean, really, how many sixes can we be holding here?

Right now, my NL is still kinda crappy..lol, but I still think I fold here. In limit it is an easy raise, but in limit we are not playing for stacks.

I really hate minraises, but how would a minraise be here? We can take a free card if we miss, still keep the pot relatively small and make a decision on the river if we miss again.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

Since it's deep, I think you have to fold. If you call and the straight card comes, it will be obvious and he may get away from his over pair.

If we are less deep (say 100bb), would most people like a push on the flop?

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

Shoving flop allows us to commit our money while we still have a great deal of equity. The only other option would be to fold, and the reasoning behind a fold would be that 1) we're fairly certain we're behind, and 2) there is little chance that he is folding any hand that currently beats us. However, given that our opponent is frequently out of line, I lean towards shoving over folding because I honestly can envision villain having AK here.

Calling this flop is absolutely horrible, regardless of your intent on the turn.
Folding this flop is standard against 99% of villains, but in this instance I shove.\

Matrix's post is spot on

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

Raising here looks VERY unpleasant to me. Villain's raise looks big, but it leaves a tremendous amount of money behind -- too much to get all-in on the flop. Since our raise can't put us all-in, and since we're unlikely to want to push the turn, we probably shouldn't commit more cash now. The "hope he reraises so we can get all-in" line of argument seems insane to me: why on earth would we "hope" that villain makes the one play that means we're probably in a world of hurt right now? Especially since it will force us to commit our entire 200BB stack if it happens?

To my mind, the only legitimate options are folding and smooth-calling.

Reasons to fold:

- We know nothing about villain's range.
- If we miss, villain is likely to blow us off our hand on the turn.
- Villain might be making a single bluff at the pot -- if we hit, villain might check/fold, especially if we hit our deuce.
- We might improve to a second-best hand that ties us in to losing a 200 BB stack.
- Our pot odds are abyssmal.
- There is still a player to act behind us.
- Our hand is weak enough that it should be considered nothing but a drawing hand.

Reasons to call:
- We have position: if villain is bluffing, he might easily check/fold the turn, giving us a nice lil' payoff.
- Villain won't put us on this hand, and if we hit we could get paid handsomely with our winner, ideally the full 200 BBs.
- We are deep as hell, and that makes the potential implied odds extraordinarily strong.
- Our call could buy us all the diamonds as bluff cards.

To my mind, the key points are (1) we know nothing about villain and (2) we have position. One argues strongly for folding and the other argues strongly for calling. Given that our opponent is crazy I'm willing to entertain the notion that we're ahead of his range, or perhaps just slightly behind, but I simply have no idea. I can't put it past villain to have 76, or 55, or A3, or Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], or any other random hand. That flop bet is big, but unfortunately crazy-aggro opponents come in two primary flavors: the kind that overbets when scared and the kind that abuses his loosey-goosey image to overbet with monsters and expecting to get paid off. So now we're back to #1, we don't know what this guy is all about.

Ultimately, my decision comes down to stack sizes. Not just mine and UTG's, but also SB, BB, and MP. There are four opponents at this table with over 160 BBs. Right now I've got over 200 BBs and I'm covered in two spots. If I get stacked my stack size drops down to 100 BBs, which denies me the leverage to get paid off REALLY handsomely when I hit a true monster down the road. In other words, for metagame purposes my stack being twice the maximum allowable buyin has a potential value to it, and I don't want to risk that potential value on a longshot draw, especially since I could be drawing even thinner than I think.

Ultimately I sigh heavily and fold, hoping to leverage my gigantic stack to exploit one of my many deep-stacked and incompetent opponents and get a true payday on a 400+ BB pot when I've got a hand worth backing.

If villain's raise had been any smaller, this would be an call. If I knew villain better, this could be a call. If my draw was to the nuts, this could be a call. If my stack were a little bit bigger, this could be a call. If the rest of the table had 100 BBs or less, this could be a call. As it stands there's a perfect storm that makes this, to my mind, a thin fold. I don't fault anybody who says to call this; I just think folding is slightly better when taking EVERYTHING into account.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

i think i would fold..
probably a fold &gt; raise &gt; call in my mind..
i really hate calling there

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

wtf is the max buy in for .25 BB on Absolute? Never seen a 6 max table this deep for 25NL. 99.9% of the time you get hit and runners where 5 players rarely run this deep, ever, at least on Stars.

As for the hand, fold. Bottom line is that you're only invested $1.25 here. No point in proving who's tool is bigger with an extremely vulnerable hand. Equity flew out the window as soon as villian overbet 2x the pot.

Let's just pick a better spot. You can easily stack player's like this, but they will stack you SOOO fast in spots like this. Wait until you have a hand where there aren't a dozen+ hands that beat you and stack his ass then.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

oop missed stacks, 100bb deep definite raise.

i call here. your equity is too good to fold. kinda marginal though, i don't hate folding, i don't think raising is terrible either tbh. This could be a raise or a fold depending on his specific tendencies though, the reads aren't very specific in op, but just going off them i'd call.

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

[ QUOTE ]
oop missed stacks, 100bb deep definite raise.

i call here. your equity is too good to fold. (kinda marginal though, i don't hate folding, i don't think raising is terrible either tbh)

[/ QUOTE ]

i just don't see our hand having much s/d value - how many more 2x pot bets are you willing to call?

and if we can't get to s/d with hand that might or might not be good we are just looking at an 8 out draw with terrible pot odds and poor implied odds (because the draw is obvious).

Re: 25nl: WTF???
 

im folding a large turn bet ui. our equity at this point vs his range is more then enough to continue. It falls dramatically on the turn though.


he could well use our outs to bluff/pay us off anyway because he's retarded/slow down etc. stuff like that all makes it more of a call too and we have alot of money behind.


probably a 10-out draw if we are behind.