So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Ok, as many of you know, the bookie I deal with is trying to not pay me or the other people involved in betting with me. The total sum owed is ~80k, and he has come up with numerous excuses to a pseudo-intermediary, (he will not answer the phone for any of the f'd principals). I am looking for ideas on legal things to do to either make it in his best interests to pay or to screw him over should he not. He was accepting these bets out-of-state, which would seem to be a pretty obvious RICO violation, as well as a few other federal felonies, I believe. Anyways, the things I have thought of include;

- Reporting to police/authories(what would MY liability be here?).
- Writing up a detailed summary of what happened, including his real name, phone #'s, address, and his legit(?) business he owns.
- Contacting people that book through him and telling them what he does to big winners.
- Using some bookie contacts I have to get word out to other books about him.


There's some other things I have considered of varying degrees of pressure, but any and all thoughts anyone has on anything I have commented on here or their own ideas are greatly appreciated. If it helps, the guy is based out of Syracuse, New York. Far more interested in ideas that might better facilitate us getting our $$$ though, ( for which we are a pretty serious dog at this point.)

Thanks for the help,
Daliman

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Have u thought about hiring OJ anf his crew?

Time to get muscle...

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Do you know how to get ahold of him other than a phone #?

Are in/around Syracuse as well?

Without getting too specific...When he was paying you, how did you settle up?

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

How much is 80K to you?

As you know, one of the inherent risks of using a bookie is that you won't get paid. Taking steps to get paid, once he is ducking you is stepping into dangerous territory. He is obviously in a desperate state right now and who knows what kind of mindset he is in, or what he would do if you tried to send him to jail. That is something to consider when weighing your options.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

something about this whole spiel stinks. i don't believe it.

-c

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

factor debt to people who will collect as I suggested before, LDO.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know how to get ahold of him other than a phone #?

Are in/around Syracuse as well?

Without getting too specific...When he was paying you, how did you settle up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just the phone #, although I know his work address, his business name, ( which he owns/runs) and his home address.I'm in IL. He sent cash FedEx or funds via Poker site.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
something about this whole spiel stinks. i don't believe it.

-c

[/ QUOTE ]
Well thank you for your well-informed opinion. Your long servitude to these boards is duly noted.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much is 80K to you?

As you know, one of the inherent risks of using a bookie is that you won't get paid. Taking steps to get paid, once he is ducking you is stepping into dangerous territory. He is obviously in a desperate state right now and who knows what kind of mindset he is in, or what he would do if you tried to send him to jail. That is something to consider when weighing your options.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kinda alot, and definitely alot to my other investors. But I understand and appreciate your points.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

It's tlt's gimmick account. He's so unoriginal that he couldn't even use capitalization or quit writing in a signature at the end of every post.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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factor debt to people who will collect as I suggested before, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not doing that, period. I have a family. But other investors are not quite as interested in being diplomatic.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's tlt's gimmick account. He's so unoriginal that he couldn't even use capitalization or quit writing in a signature at the end of every post.

[/ QUOTE ]
tlt?

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Threaten to ruin his legit careers. Slander and Libel are only those things if they're lies. I'm sure you can rent a Billboard for a few days or even tip off the local news and get them a scoop. Of course these are all last straws as you're definitely not getting paid then :-/

Also if he's paying through poker sites you can threaten to report him to the poker site he's using. (At least FTP would since they love to randomly ban people and freeze assets)

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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factor debt to people who will collect as I suggested before, LDO.

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This would get you some of your money but nowhere near what you are owed and you have to consider the possibility of him factoring your head for doing it. Plus it's usually best to stay away from the type of fine upstanding citizens who buy this type of debt.

Realistically your options are pretty limited. You're not the type that's able to physically intimidate him into paying(IF he even has the money to pay) so unless you want to get quite involved with the police.... Because dropping one dime on him ain't gonna do [censored]. The cops are going to want a lot more info than that before they go after him. Like enough to get warrants and things like that. Which opens up the possibility of your name being mentioned as an informant. No good can come of that.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
factor debt to people who will collect as I suggested before, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would get you some of your money but nowhere near what you are owed and you have to consider the possibility of him factoring your head for doing it. Plus it's usually best to stay away from the type of fine upstanding citizens who buy this type of debt.

Realistically your options are pretty limited. You're not the type that's able to physically intimidate him into paying(IF he even has the money to pay) so unless you want to get quite involved with the police.... Because dropping one dime on him ain't gonna do [censored]. The cops are going to want a lot more info than that before they go after him. Like enough to get warrants and things like that. Which opens up the possibility of your name being mentioned as an informant. No good can come of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO WAI! I am 162 pounds of rippling muscle!

FWIW, he was busted ~18 months ago, so he may be much more reticent to get busted again than usual. Not quite as cncerned about being named "an informent" as it will be pretty obvious I will do most anything legal to get my $$$/make his life harder.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Hypothetically, these could be two potentials actions:

1. His image
I have never used a "bookie", but I would imagine that they run on some sort of creditability. A "bookie" is selling a product, if his product is bad, people won't buy it. If people know if that he is an individual that does not pay, then he should not get any customers. Again, due to the nature of his business, I am not really sure how one could possibly inform other customers.

2. Tell the authorities
The obvious problem with this solution is that the consumer will not get his/her money back (RICO = asset forfeiture, similar to drug trafficking cases) and he/she could possibly face legal action. In fact, I would think that the only reason someone would resort to this is a nuclear option. One could possibly tell the authorities that they have knowledge of a "big time bookie", but that they would not testify without immunity (In theory, they could not compel him/her to testify due to 5th amendment right against self-incrimination, if they force him/her to testify, then they would have to grant him/her immunity from prosecution).


Option 1 appears to the only course of action that could result in the individual getting some of their money. Option 2 is only for revenge/justice. Illegal transactions are out of the bounds of legitimacy (/Ontology), so obviously there are no legal tools to assist consumers with this. Option 1 could seen as consumers attempting to reason with "the bookie" that he needs to run a more sound business or else he will lose customers. Option 2 is more of a "game of brinkmanship."

Also, isn't is possible for bookies to run bad if they are not taking even sided action? Legitimate books can take short-time hits, I doubt a more small time bookie could. What if he simply doesn't have the money or is possibly just running a scam?

Sorry for your situation and GL.


Option 3: "Surprise Witnesses. Each one more surprising than the last. I tell you, the judge won't know what hit him."

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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factor debt to people who will collect as I suggested before, LDO.

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I'm not doing that, period. I have a family. But other investors are not quite as interested in being diplomatic.

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if you aren't willing/able to use illegal tactics (like stealing his car) to persuade a bookie to pay you, then you should have never wagered that kind of money with him in the first place.

also - for people who might learn from this sucky situation - when you are getting the almost-too-good-to-be-true numbers on even money teasers that you got from this guy, you should not share him with anybody. you directly cut into your own profits when you let others in on such a lucrative opportunity.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

And to add to what Dank said, one more guidelines for the future / those listening

Never, ever, ever, let a local get behind.

This never should have gotten to 80k.

Settle every week with your local. Make a big point of it. Both directions. You pay promptly, and you expect he pays promptly.

The best locals that I *ahem* know collect once a week like clockwork once you're established, and they pay out once a week like clockwork a couple days after the collection. And the first time that payout is even a couple hours late, you need to start to make other plans.

If he slides one week and hasn't corrected the next, then you're working on a much smaller debt and he can recover. Never let a guy get in to you for more than one or two weeks maximum, just like you should never get in to a guy like this for more than one or two weeks maximum.

-P

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Dali,

My unofficial advice:

Get in touch with the guy directly. Do whatever it takes to make this happen. Be creative.

Do whatever it takes -- call from a payphone; have an intermediary make a bet that you plan to lose, schedule a meet to pay, and interrupt the meet; show up at his place of reputable business, whatever you can do.

When you do, bring a friend, the kind of friend you'd like to do this sort of thing with. Do not show up alone.

Calmly but clearly explain that you'd like to receive your money, and that you're more than happy to work out a payment plan.

Do not try to get cute and roll him for vig.

Propose he can drop you 20k a week for the next four weeks, for example, and you'll be more than happy.

Collect the first payment, or at least a down payment on the first payment, right there.

-P

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

this is the risk you accept dealing with a bookie, from someone who was involved with those types of operations it looks to me like your bookie is broke, I'd def try to work out a payment plan, and I'd consider myself lucky to get any payments

the threat of you going to the police is pretty unrealistic to him, he knows that would be akin to calling the police to report your drug dealer for shorting your sack

in the future I would advise against laying 80K worth of action with a street bookie obv, but if you plan on cornering this guy the best place is prob at his biz/work that will have the most impact phone calls and messages is not the way you're going to nail down some payment plan w/ this guy

GL

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

the problem with taking this to the authorites.. do you have any proof he booked the bets for you? I'm assuming he doesn't fax u a receipt for your 80k worth of bets.

I agree with performity how do you let this get to 80k unless that was 1 week of action.

Seems like a win/win situation for him not paying u. He gets to keep the 80k, and u can't do much about it unless you resort to something illegal.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

maybe this guy can help you collect

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMHtA1AUQ9o

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

I can't imagine that taking it to the police could be in the least bit helpful.
He's probably busted so I really don't know how you are going to be able to collect.

Had a roommate several years ago who ran hot with his bookie and we also had a couple neighbors who places bets through him who also ran hot.
Then the bookie skipped town still owing my roommate around $10k...a couple of thousand of which were supposed to go to the neighbors who were mighty ticked and were ready to take it out on the roomie. They were somewhat suspicious that he was just keeping the dough himself but I am pretty sure he wasn't based on how really freaking scared he was and also a couple of his phone convos which I don't believe he knew I overheard.
Since he didn't even know where this guy went I'm pretty sure he never got paid.
gg $10k.

Anyway, bookies skipping town when they are in deep is all too standard I suspect. And if they don't have the money to pay you then it's not like it's going to magically appear just because you are really ticked about not getting paid.

My hunch is that it is going to be an awful amount of work to get this guy to cough up even a fraction of what is owed.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

in todays world, what is the point of using a bookie anyway? I can line shop from the privacy of my home, I can make a bet in my boxers, and I know the sites that I have money on aren't going to stiff me if I happen to win.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Since from what I'm reading you have ruled out violence I don't believe you have many options. I have been in a similar boat twice ($9k in 94 and $58k in 98) and I had to write both of them off.

With a local guy you want to make sure he is laying off to someone further up the food chain. I found a guy in 98 who adheres to this strictly and have not had an issue since. The worst he has done is show up 2 hours late once.

In 98 I let it go because I was still in law school and still not sure about a lot of things. If that situation happened now I wouldn't hesitate. My response would be to start with property damage and then progress to physical harm. If he has any ability to pay he'll pay up as soon as he realizes you are serious but odds are you'll get very little if any of it.

The only way I'd consider removing violence from the table is if the guy was laying off to someone who got busted and I could independently confirm that.

Think of it this way if you lost and didn't pay what do you think he'd do to collect?

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Daliman,

For as smart as you seem to be, you really make some stupid decisions.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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Think of it this way if you lost and didn't pay what do you think he'd do to collect?

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I don't think it's a good idea to suggest that he does what the other guy would do. Like MicroBob said, the bookie is probably broke and in the hole. People change when they're desperate and backed into a corner. I know if I had a family, I would approach this guy in a way that would keep them farr from any danger. I hate to sound morbid, but people have killed for much less than $80k and I wouldn't want to put a lowlife bookie to the test.

Also, Performify is 100% right.. you never should have let the debt grow so big.
On that note... Dali, you need to stop putting so much trust into people. I mean, look at this. This is a big real life leak that you need to plug.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

wow daliman - stop loaning/giving money to everyone and stop being so trusting of everyone. You may end up mostly writing off the $80k that the bookie owes you because he possibly can't pay anyway and you really aren't willing to do anything too sketchy/dangerous to try to get it.
And I'm guessing that a lot of the other money you 'loaned' out in that other thread hasn't been paid back either.

You need to hang on to all your money like a true nit. And this means not loaning anyone a freaking dime. Seriously, this is a real problem.

I also fail to understand how you let the bookie loan get up to $80k. I mean, after you got to $30k or $40k or whatever and he still hadn't paid you might stop thinking, "I know he's good for it. Lets bet another $2k on the Packers."

It's possible that the reason he continued to take your action even though he was already in too deep was so that maybe you could run cold and he could get it back to even or something.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

I wouldn't make any threats that would provoke physical retaliation from the bookie. Money just isn't worth putting yourself or family in danger.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I also fail to understand how you let the bookie loan get up to $80k. I mean, after you got to $30k or $40k or whatever and he still hadn't paid you might stop thinking, "I know he's good for it. Lets bet another $2k on the Packers."



[/ QUOTE ]

Im sure the extra bets where rebetting unpaid winnings, its not like he he was owed 40k, and handed the booked 20kmore... at least I hope not.

So its not quite as bad as it seems.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Well, of course he's not handing over the money to bet with him.

I'm saying that once your bookie owes you $30k and hasn't paid at all you have some responsibility to determine whether you should continue betting with him or not.

Obviously daliman made that determination once it got all the way up to $80k and I think he could have done so earlier.
Maybe he ran hot on just a few $5k or $10k bets over a 7 day stretch and it all happened very quickly.
But I get the impression that this was a bit more drawn-out.


For a rogue bookie...once you get to $20k or $30k and he already is in too deep do you think he's going to say, "I can't pay you as it is so I'm going to stop taking your action?"
Some might do that but a lot will not and they will just continue to accept your action in hopes that you run cold and you are back to even and the heat is suddenly off of you.
Then daliman continues to run hot and this bookie realizes that he's now screwed for even more and it's time to just run away from the situation.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

Im not sure if some of the people offering advice in this forum are attorneys, but you could possibly speak to one and see if he can come up with any possible solutions and to assess the likely outcomes if you were to be an informant

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

So you set up a syndicate, reamed a soft book for tens of thousands, then are surprised he doesn't have the high moral fiber to pay you back when in reality you should've ran at the first sign he was a slow payer? Kinda dug yourself in a hole here, especially vis a vis your "partners". If this were an online book you'd have a few avenues to explore. Local bookie off the grid and on his own...I doubt it. He was arrested before? He might have some friends in that town. Plus...any bookie worth his salt will lay action off to reduce risk if he is taking in bets too large to handle...so...I'm guessing you made bets he couldn't lay off or he doesn't even know what laying off is. In either case, this guy is a moron. Hard to get money from a moron.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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Hard to get money from a moron.

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I disagree...they're some of the easiest people to get money from (see: online poker).

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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in todays world, what is the point of using a bookie anyway? I can line shop from the privacy of my home, I can make a bet in my boxers, and I know the sites that I have money on aren't going to stiff me if I happen to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

If only this were true.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not sure if some of the people offering advice in this forum are attorneys, but you could possibly speak to one and see if he can come up with any possible solutions and to assess the likely outcomes if you were to be an informant

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I'm not a criminal attorney, but offering to become an informant for the cops strikes me as the most idiotic advice in the world. Unless Daliman is a gangster, and I don't think that he is, the goal here is simple. Try and get paid without committing any felonies in the process (like hiring goons to hurt the guy -- another brilliant piece of advice).

In short, do what Performify suggested, and if that doesn't work, chalk it up to $80K worth of experience.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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factor debt to people who will collect as I suggested before, LDO.

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I'm not doing that, period. I have a family. But other investors are not quite as interested in being diplomatic.

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I honestly don't understand what you mean. Banks and I-banks factor their debt all the time. This *is* the diplomatic solution. Once you factor the debt, you are out of the equation.

If you factor to a friend of his, or a bookie he lays off his action with who will give you $25k, you're $25k better off and your bookie is rid of his debt to you. Win-win.

If I offered you $50k cash right now, would you take it? Of course you would. I don't understand the problem, there's a multi-$billion industry based on collections with publicly traded companies and everything. [Obvs I understand he is not Kmart LDO]

If your plan is to get no one involved and hope he pays you...I wish you luck with that, honestly.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

A few thoughts:

--The O in RICO stands for "Organizations". One guy with a phone and a pencil does not fall under "Corrupt Organizations".

--The police? Seriously? Do you think they care about someone engaged in illegal activity, claiming to be swindled by their partner in crime? No, placing a bet is not as illegal as accepting a bet. But the whole transaction depends upon illegal activity. Don't expect the police to help you collect anything.

--The bottom line on this is simple. The man is telling you, "I'm not paying. Now, what are you going to do about it?" You have a wife and family to support, and you don't need this guy's 80k to do that, but you DO need to stay out of jail to accomplish it. You have a clean criminal record, and you want to keep it that way. There's only one thing you can "do about it", and that's walk away.

Getting him arrested, or especially harming him or his property, do you absolutely no good at all. Too many cameras, too many lawyers.

You just learned an $80,000 lesson.

--Getting stiffed is part of the game. There's no avoiding it. All you can do is try to keep it down to a small part of the game.

"The Book on Bookies" was written by a retired illegal bookmaker. He says in his last year, he won over a million dollars from his players, but only collected 75% of that money. The rest, he got stiffed. He shrugged it off as an unavoidable expense, and decided to be happy with an annual gross of $750,000.

Again, you paid for an expensive lesson. Learn from it.

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

hire a thug to rough him up for 20% of the money he gets from him

if that doesn't work put a stick of dynamite under the hood of his car

Re: So I\'m getting screwed by a bookie. Ideas?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way if you lost and didn't pay what do you think he'd do to collect?

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I don't think it's a good idea to suggest that he does what the other guy would do. Like MicroBob said, the bookie is probably broke and in the hole. People change when they're desperate and backed into a corner. I know if I had a family, I would approach this guy in a way that would keep them farr from any danger. I hate to sound morbid, but people have killed for much less than $80k and I wouldn't want to put a lowlife bookie to the test.

Also, Performify is 100% right.. you never should have let the debt grow so big.
On that note... Dali, you need to stop putting so much trust into people. I mean, look at this. This is a big real life leak that you need to plug.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a lot of time to comment ATM, as I 'm about to run out to the hospital to see the Dalibaby, but a couple quick things.

1. I am specifically owed just under 52k. Before the weekend I went 31-0-5, it was just under 8k, which I was comfortable with leaving on as a credit with him in case I happened to have a bad week. The rest of the $$$ is owed to people who copied my bets/referred me. Obv I was planning on getting paid on this total before going forward with him.

2. Saying I'm overtrusting and overgenerous to a fault with friends and acquaintances is rarely going to be wrong.

3. I doubt the bookie is broke; I think he just decided that since I have been there, starting ~week 11 of last year, I have cost him upwards of 125k and had enough.

4. The main reason I was betting with him was that I was getting better odds/lines with him, a friend had referred me and never had a problem b4, ( course, he never hit him nearly as hard as I did either.), and I was a bit short on liquid funds for betting at the beginning of the year, and posting up on a site would have been problematic.