Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

2-5 gbp

Villain is 24/18/2.5.We have a bit of history together - i 3bet/4bet him a ton (most of those were really good hands, but he doesn't know that) and he layed down.Once or twice i just called his 3bet in pos with KK or AA and 3bet the flop.

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $516.50
UTG+1: $507
CO: $745.65
Button: $626.70
SB: $1087.70
BB: $118.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $20</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($62, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $55</font>, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($172, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $155</font>, CO calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($482, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">

Thoughts about:

A) What to do on the turn?
Check-raise?Check-call?
Bet (call obviously)?
With such a huge draw i call anyway, but if i bet and miss, as it happened, i don't have enough left to bet him off.

B) Do you take a shot on the river hoping he has AJ/higher FD?In case he has an Ace, this could be the old "you know that i know that you are commited and i still shove, so i can't really be bluffing, am i?"

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

lots of good options on the turn I just mix it up there. On the river I really think you should give up. It is a really drawy board so I think you get called here very often since it is so easy to put you on a missed draw.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

Since i almost always should give up on the river if missed - is the better option to check turn in your opinion, cause i have very little river FE?

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

I think a river bluff is still reasonable. $300 is enough for him to consider a fold with a weak ace. On the other hand I don't think he called the turn hoping you will let him check down the river. Considering this I guess I'd give it up.

On the turn I like a check-raise.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

When in doubt, err on the side of aggression.

Louis said it first, Check-Raise on the turn and let him sweat it out.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

also
pot/overbet flop
pot/overbet (shove turn)

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

Anyone check-raises the flop?

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

I like check raising the turn a lot.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

turn c/r kinda sucks if villain is any good because he shouldn't be b/f AJ or something. I like a lead here.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

turn c/r wont work too often bc there not gunna be betting very many hands, often theyll check behind for pot control

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

i think id just push the river probably

also i dont like a turn c/r at all, seems like any hand hes bet/calling the turn.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

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turn c/r kinda sucks if villain is any good because he shouldn't be b/f AJ or something. I like a lead here.

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I guess lead isnt bad as we still have decent fold fold equity if he has 8s, maybe nines or tens if he isnt 3betting them pf. But I still think c/raising is good - hes gonna be betting his draws usually won't he? - c/r gets him off that when leads dont always, if he bets aj - which he will a certain amount of the time, I dont c how he can call a c/raise and if we lead and get raised it is very ugly. Plus i dont mind it getting checked through really.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

[ QUOTE ]
also
pot/overbet flop
pot/overbet (shove turn)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is so pointless unless you do this as your normal line.....

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone check-raises the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. There is no guarantee that the CO will bet. A bet from you might take the pot right there and you have a lot of equity.

If you want to lead the turn it might be better to bet less so you have a better stack-to-pot ratio for a bluff on the river.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

i like a turn bet because it folds out and pps or weak pairs that might be floating (or if he is just floating with nothing in position), it's hard to put him on a draw here and I don't think he is folding an ace on the river, which at this point he almost surely has AQ, AJ, AT.

It sucks but I think you just have to give up. He seems solid and by calling turn he has committed and I don't think the whole leveling is going to work here.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

So, we are checking the river, right?

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

c/f river. There were 4 players to the flop.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

3 actually.
And i don't put him on a set, he'd raise at some point.
It's AT-AQ or higher FD.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

i think checking and giving up is fine but sometimes i mix in a bluff. it's pretty unlikely that villian has anything more than Ax. AJ/AQ i think are at the top of his range. he probably calls a fair amount of the time but depending on the flow of the game and with a tighter image a bluff is good.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

if u had like 400 on river i shove river for sure - he has mediumish A or FD very often. i just dont think your 380 gets the job done enough

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

The reason to bet is if better draws (that wont call river) make up a big enough portion of his range

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

i can only see a few better draws he could have.. KQh/KJh/QJh. of course if you check and he bets, it doesn't really matter if his draw is weaker or stronger because you can't call. i'm kind of torn here. if you think he can fold AT-AJ a fair amount of the time, shoving seems alright. i'm probably just giving up here but idk if that's a leak

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also
pot/overbet flop
pot/overbet (shove turn)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is so pointless unless you do this as your normal line.....

[/ QUOTE ]

no you should only do this when you have straight flush draws actually, its so bad with AK for example

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also
pot/overbet flop
pot/overbet (shove turn)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is so pointless unless you do this as your normal line.....

[/ QUOTE ]

no you should only do this when you have straight flush draws actually, its so bad with AK for example

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't see how that might be slightly exploitable?

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

Ok, i shoved river and he snapped me with AQ...

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

his hand looks a lot like AJ and I don't hink he lays it down to a &lt;psb on the river. You can get him to lay down missed draws, but does he often continue with draws on the turn ?
I would ch/f river

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

shoving river is bad-

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 actually.
And i don't put him on a set, he'd raise at some point.
It's AT-AQ or higher FD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Id probably push 1/3 to 1/2 the time.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

[ QUOTE ]
shoving river is bad-

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why? he has a draw alot of the time too, he folds all of them of course. And he will probably fold AT AJ as well. I just wish you bet a bit smaller on flop and turn so we have a slightly bigger bet on river but it doesnt change things too much, you need to shove here some percentage of the time.

Re: Monster draw that comes up short (Nl1000)
 

Oh well, it's not That bad, but I just don't think he's folding river enough once he calls turn on that board. And what makes you think he got a draw a big % of the time? I do not agree with that part. First of all we got hearts ourselves (not to mention the 910), secondly there's a pair on the board that should make him a little scared calling off with.. say hearts. finally ppl tend to fold draws to potsized bets on the turn once they choosed the passive line on the flop.