lolriver
 

Villian is a tag old regular. Not the greatest player ever, but solid and certainly a winner. He prob views me as a tight moron because every hand I get dealt has a 2 in it and I actually fold to river raises.

FW 20/40

Preflop Hero is bb with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Folded to villain in CO who raises, folded to hero, hero calls

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero c/r villain call

Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero bet villain call

River A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
http://www.geocities.com/retroboyil/whammy2.jpg

Re: lolriver
 

If I say check-raise everyone will laugh at me.

Re: lolriver
 

what exactly are we putting him on that this river hit him? QJ/QT/KJ/KT seem his most likely holdings. Personally, I'm open raising any suited king from CO, particularly with a nit like you in the BB (not that I know you from other than your self-description). Fine, I suppose AJ/AT/A9 are possibilities, but.... What I'm asking myself is if I get more value out of betting, or check/calling. The answer depends on the villian, I guess, but you should be betting this river generally. For the most part, if you check here a random player will only bet his winning hands. If you bet, he'll not be raising a lone pair of aces, but may raise two pair, and may bluff raise.

Re: lolriver
 

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If I say check-raise everyone will laugh at me.

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that is because of our options, it is probably the second worst play.

Re: lolriver
 

open muck being the worst? Or bet/3bet?

Re: lolriver
 

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If I say check-raise everyone will laugh at me.

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that is because of our options, it is probably the second worst play.

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I dont think we have any good options. If we bet he calls with all hands that beat us. If we check he bets all hands that beat us and if he is at all good alot of hands that dont.

I am not saying it will work all that often, but our image should allow folds of some better hands and we also loosen up our own image in the process, which I am all for against this type of opponent. Not making this a standard line. I just dont think it is that bad under the circumstances.

Re: lolriver
 

I think c/f is right even though it sounds gross. Problem is, despite the fact that he views you as tight, this isn't the type of action you normally put in with a hand that you plan on folding. That means he shouldn't be bluffing very often at all; especially because he's old and good. I would say if he bets the river it's likely he's got you. It IS live, after all...

Re: lolriver
 

Actually now that I think about it, I would be surprised if he was capable of turning QJ or QT into a bluff. This a concept that I have copied from the fish. Turning perfectly showdownable hands into bluffs against tight players.

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I say check-raise everyone will laugh at me.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is because of our options, it is probably the second worst play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think we have any good options. If we bet he calls with all hands that beat us. If we check he bets all hands that beat us and if he is at all good alot of hands that dont.

I am not saying it will work all that often, but our image should allow folds of some better hands and we also loosen up our own image in the process, which I am all for against this type of opponent. Not making this a standard line. I just dont think it is that bad under the circumstances.

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the only hand that will ever fold that we can't beat is KJ.

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I say check-raise everyone will laugh at me.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is because of our options, it is probably the second worst play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think we have any good options. If we bet he calls with all hands that beat us. If we check he bets all hands that beat us and if he is at all good alot of hands that dont.

I am not saying it will work all that often, but our image should allow folds of some better hands and we also loosen up our own image in the process, which I am all for against this type of opponent. Not making this a standard line. I just dont think it is that bad under the circumstances.

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the only hand that will ever fold that we can't beat is KJ.

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I dont know would u call a cr by a nit with AT or AJ on this river? I am not saying this is the best play, but I am always on the look out for spots like this so that I can bat them around to see what others think.

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I say check-raise everyone will laugh at me.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is because of our options, it is probably the second worst play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think we have any good options. If we bet he calls with all hands that beat us. If we check he bets all hands that beat us and if he is at all good alot of hands that dont.

I am not saying it will work all that often, but our image should allow folds of some better hands and we also loosen up our own image in the process, which I am all for against this type of opponent. Not making this a standard line. I just dont think it is that bad under the circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

the only hand that will ever fold that we can't beat is KJ.

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I dont know would u call a cr by a nit with AT or AJ on this river? I am not saying this is the best play, but I am always on the look out for spots like this so that I can bat them around to see what others think.

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The thing is, a "nit" doesn't tend to take a line like this. If I had KJ here, I'd think "Wow. I don't beat anything, and when I don't beat anything I fold, except for the times when his line makes no sense and I cannot figure out what in the world he would play this way. In those instances I call."

Re: lolriver
 

based on the description, sounds like c/f

as for c/r, mitch do you realize we didn't even raise pf? so c/r reps exactly 'poorly played jt' or frustrated tight guy/girl who's sick of folding.

ps- nina, are you male or female (sorry if that should be obvious from previous posts)?

Re: lolriver
 

Nice post. I concur.

Re: lolriver
 

Getting 7 to 1 on the river - I hate to fold here.

I think I'd check / call. Not sure what Ace hand he could hold that calls the turn bet. AQo? QJ[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Other than those, you should be ahead enough to call?

Re: lolriver
 

i kind of want to check call as i think it's better than bet fold by a little bit here; just because he might bluff/valuebet a few worse hands a bit of the time and i like to see showdowns in blind battles.

Re: lolriver
 

vma - nina is a girl

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
based on the description, sounds like c/f

as for c/r, mitch do you realize we didn't even raise pf? so c/r reps exactly 'poorly played jt' or frustrated tight guy/girl who's sick of folding.

ps- nina, are you male or female (sorry if that should be obvious from previous posts)?

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QTc, or QJc. I am not saying anymore on the subject. Anyway, I would be inclined to check/fold with the read have on this guy so far, it just seems like he has an ace heavy range at this point and we beat hardly anything.

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
vma - nina is a girl

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if by girl you mean guy, then yeah nina is a girl.

Re: lolriver
 

just don't fold or pay 2 bets on the river and you can't really go too wrong

reasons to cc: Villain doesn't have an A here often unless its AQ. I think its too likely he folds gutters like AJ/AT on the turn unless he picks up a flush draw. You said you've folded to some river raises so villian may be capable of bluff raising. Villain is tag and may find a thin value bet w/a weaker king.

Bet/fold - Villain is unlikely to bluff given the nature of the board. You can value bet against weaker kings that may check behind on the river. Villain can't raise you w/a naked A here b/c the board has to look scary from his perspective too.

Really it comes down to whether or not you think he will bluff raise you out of this pot more often than pay you off w/a weaker hand. I prefer b/f here but thats just me.

Re: lolriver
 

bet/fold, this guys not bluff-raising that river card, its foxwoods

Re: lolriver
 

If you feel you can generally fold to a raise I prefer to bet/fold. Although I still think he's going to fold alot of hands you beat.

C/C if you feel he'll accidentally bluff the river with a perfectly showdownable hand(an error I feel is made quite often live).

Re: lolriver
 

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If you feel you can generally fold to a raise I prefer to bet/fold. Although I still think he's going to fold alot of hands you beat.

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other than MAYBE KJ (which probably isn't folding anyway) what hands that we beat are folding?

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
If you feel you can generally fold to a raise I prefer to bet/fold. Although I still think he's going to fold alot of hands you beat.



other than MAYBE KJ (which probably isn't folding anyway) what hands that we beat are folding?

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villian is listed a a "Tag old regular". I would assume that the only hands paying us off are QT, and QJ. Even those hands he might fold with a K and A on board. Other hands that are a pair and gutshot(T9,J9 specifically), are probably folding on the river.

The more I think about this hand I want to C/C and let him bluff at the ace.

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
If you feel you can generally fold to a raise I prefer to bet/fold. Although I still think he's going to fold alot of hands you beat.



other than MAYBE KJ (which probably isn't folding anyway) what hands that we beat are folding?

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villian is listed a a "Tag old regular". I would assume that the only hands paying us off are QT, and QJ. Even those hands he might fold with a K and A on board. Other hands that are a pair and gutshot(T9,J9 specifically), are probably folding on the river.

The more I think about this hand I want to C/C and let him bluff at the ace.

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i'm retarded. i read that statement wrong so obviously what i wrote makes no sense

Re: lolriver
 

To everyone that says c/c to induce a bluff,

Which hands is he bluffing with?

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
To everyone that says c/c to induce a bluff,

Which hands is he bluffing with?

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ TT J9 T9

Re: lolriver
 

c/f or b/f. b/f is better imo

Re: lolriver
 

so didn't answer this hand last night because was really torn on what to do. After thinking a little more and reading responses put me in the b/f camp.

Re: lolriver
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To everyone that says c/c to induce a bluff,

Which hands is he bluffing with?

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ TT J9 T9

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd want a read that he is either a little clueless (i.e. he'll bet just because he thinks you are weak without thinking about you can call with) or aggressive enough to knowingly turn a made hand into a thin bluff.

For a thinking player, I'd give him credit to be able to recognize a defensive check, which is what a river check would look like here. That makes c/f sound like a pretty good line, but I think it loses too much value those times he would have made a crying call but checks behind instead. Also, c/f this river could be pretty bad for metagame - this guy will probably have it if he bets, but other players at the table will just see that you check-raised, bet, and check-folded when an A came. I suppose that could be a good thing if they already bluff too much, but I wouldn't want to put ideas into the heads of otherwise predictable players.

Finally, I doubt this guy will bluff-raise the river here. Even if he thinks OP is too tight, she's played aggressively and didn't slow down when the A came (if you bet in rhythm), so he'd have to have a lot of tricky in him to do that.

So, I say b/f.