Renewable Energy
 

So I sit here and watch the History Channel this evening and the show is on renewable energies. And I’m sure you, like myself have heard about these for years. But there is very little in the way of affecting our lives. And as I sit here and ponder filling my gas tank tomorrow on the way to the hospital at $3.25 a gallon, I wonder WTF is wrong with us?!?!

The first part of the show was dedicated to solar power. It claims that if we built a solar field 10,000 square miles (1/10th of Nevada) that would be enough to power the U.S. The next part of the show dealt with wind farms, they claimed that there is enough wind power in North and South Dakota to power the U.S. as well. So again, WTF are we doing and thinking.

I’m not saying that we should build a huge 10,000 mile mirror in the dessert in Nevada. All though the government does own an absurd amount of land in Nevada, upwards of over 90%. And I am not saying that we need to turn the Dakotas in to wind farms either.

But aren’t these viable options that we should be looking at seriously doing? I don’t think that there needs to be one BIG solar field, but a couple of hundred smaller fields would do wonders for our reliance on foreign oil. Same with the wind farms, it doesn’t need to be 100% of the U.S. need, but it could be a decent percentage.

I think another idea that we should be seriously considering is having every new house built, be built with solar panels on them. The show stated that it was expensive to put on houses right now, but it usually pays for itself in about 5 years! DAMN, just imagine never having to pay the electric company any more money after 5 years! Or even if you do live in an area that is not completely self efficient, you could be buying electricity from other solar users. You would not be reliant on some foreign oil tycoon for heating oil anymore.

Lastly I must say that I am not a “Green” person. I don’t go out of my way to recycle (I do my part with the city system), I don’t drive a hybrid car, and I don’t have that tree hugger mentality. The reason that I post this, and have this strange feeling about this topic is because I am tired of paying up the arse for a gallon of gas. Or hear about oil prices going up for another winter were there will be people who can’t even afford to hear their own homes. And the thing that pisses me off the most is paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, while Exxon/Mobile post record profits each month.

Cliff Notes:

Why doesn’t the government force us to make use of more renewable forms of energy?

Re: Renewable Energy
 

Nuclear power is the only way forward from fossil fuels thats economically viable. At the moment, renewable energy sources just aren't efficient enough to provide significant proportions of the worlds energy consumption.

But I do agree that we have to keep building wind farms and solar fields, as anything helps reduce the carbon footprint, and in the long term we need to work on improving their efficiency.

Those figures for wind farms seem different to what I've heard before for the UK at least. In the UK it's been estimated that onshore wind farms could at best account for <10% of the UK's electricity supply.

Realistically for the next hundred years, we're eventually going to have to start building nuclear plants again, and looking into developing renewable energy + possibly fusion in the future.

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Oh and the UK does force energy companies to produce ~6% of their energy through renewable sources, charging those companies that fall short of this target and subsidising those that produce more.
But then Europe has taken a better stance towards reducing global warming than the US so far.

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Nuclear energy is a perfect solution to coal power plants. It's clean as far as the carbon footprint and we can just bury it under a mountain and let it sit for a few million years.

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I made the switch from OJ to Sunny D years ago and encourage everyone to do the same.

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I don't disagee with your nuclear statement, and think it's an important part of the equation. But if a wind farm or solar farm has an accident it doesn't cause a nuclear melt down. As for cost, even if it would cost 5 times the amount over fossil fuels it's worth it. Its a one time cost, after that you only have maintiance costs.
Also, unfortunantly I am only concerned for the US right now. The government should be the ones to help pay for the cost of this technology.

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Modern nuclear power plants won't meltdown, it was the earlier plants that had design flaws that went horribly wrong.

The US have yet to ratify the Kyoto agreement, basically meaning that they haven't agreed to reduce carbon emissions to certain international targets yet; and until this happens you won't see a massive change in your power supply as the companies won't do to much on their own without subsidies as it simply costs them too much.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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The US have yet to ratify the Kyoto agreement, basically meaning that they haven't agreed to reduce carbon emissions to certain international targets yet; and until this happens you won't see a massive change in your power supply as the companies won't do to much on their own without subsidies as it simply costs them too much.

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And this is what must change. Because if it doesn't, bad bad bad things will eventually happen. Maybe not in 20 or even 50 years. But eventually.

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According to Al Gore we will all drown before we run out of fuel anyway. Fill 'er up boys.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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I think another idea that we should be seriously considering is having every new house built, be built with solar panels on them. The show stated that it was expensive to put on houses right now, but it usually pays for itself in about 5 years! DAMN, just imagine never having to pay the electric company any more money after 5 years!

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Always ask yourself: "who benefits?". In this case, who benefits from centralized energy systems? Oftentimes the government does either through direct control or through taxation of private energy production. If everyone built solar panels that would pay themselves off in 5 years, the government loses a large chunk of money.

And it's highly unlikely that solar panels alone can totally (or even mostly) replace your energy usage of your current lifestyle in 5 years unless you live in a cave. The efficiency of solar isn't that high yet.

In short, the government forcing us to use these technologies right now would cost us more money because the technologies can't stand on their own against the current field. When they can, the government won't need to force us.

If your interested in renewable energy news, check out http://peswiki.com/ . They've got a lot of interesting info on emerging technologies in this area.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

As of now it is 10 years to recoup your costs. Cost about $50-60K to setup a 2500 sqft house. Most states give incentives to reduce that $20k.

Obv. the states that have most sunlight will generate more power, however even the NE homes still will produce enough to power their homes . There will be times when solar will not produce enough energy to power your home (cloudy days), therefore you must be hooked up to the grid, and use their power . WHen you have a surplus it is sold back to the power co.

One panel (2x4ft) is enough to produce 125wats, a light bulb. Costs have gone down significantly over the last 15 years, but still have a way to go to make affordable.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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Nuclear power is the only way forward from fossil fuels thats economically viable.

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Nuclear power is not economically viable in the private market.

And this thread should probably be in SMP or Poly.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

i currently live in north dakota, at 130 in the morning it is wind gusting at 35 mph. I have seen a tremendous increase in wind farm production in this state. I also fly airplanes alot so i get the "birds eye" view of the state. There is a parking lot of around 80-100 single windmill blades waiting for contruction. these things are hudge, like over 100-150 feet. these numbers are all guesses so im not sure but i know the production in ND is going to be increasing.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

I've thought about putting solar panels on my house. But the price needs to come down a bit more before that can seriously be considered.

Thanks to Germany's subsidy of solar and wind(at the expense of the poor - but thats another thread). I expect the cost of solar to come down soon and it might make my desire a reality.

Stu

Re: Renewable Energy
 

I just started a solar power installation company in Southern California. If you're interested PM me.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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The US have yet to ratify the Kyoto agreement, basically meaning that they haven't agreed to reduce carbon emissions to certain international targets yet; and until this happens you won't see a massive change in your power supply as the companies won't do to much on their own without subsidies as it simply costs them too much.

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And this is what must change. Because if it doesn't, bad bad bad things will eventually happen. Maybe not in 20 or even 50 years. But eventually.

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just watched something on the history channel where scientists projected that we will see huge effects in about 100 yrs. if the current trend keeps on going, Im pretty sure that was without even considering population explosion and large countries like China becoming more industrially dominant (ie. using a lot more fossils fuels(

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Why do we need to save energy?

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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And as I sit here and ponder filling my gas tank tomorrow on the way to the hospital at $3.25 a gallon, I wonder WTF is wrong with us?!?!

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As oil becomes more expensive, alternative energy sources become economically viable. It's really just as simple as the fact that alternative energy is more expensive to use than combustible fossil fuels.

At some point this will change, (already happening), and we will start to see more and more alternative energy options.

For example, Canada has tons of shale oil, (I know, still fossil fuels) but it isn't economically feasible to extract until oil hits ~$70/barrel. Now that oil has been over that threshold for quite sometime, you will start to see investment into the refinement of shale oil.


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Why doesn’t the government force us to make use of more renewable forms of energy?

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Change should be adopted because people have an economic incentive to do so. (i.e. they are paying more for oil than other energy sources), not because the government forces action.

Government action has tons of unintended consequences, some of which lead to creating a bigger problem than existed in the first place.

Corn based ethanol comes to my mind. The U.S. is handing out large subsidies to corn farmers to produce corn for ethanol, which in turn is driving up the global demand for corn, which in turn is driving up the price of corn on the free market, which in turn is making corn (many third world countries primary food source) much more expensive.

Corn is also the primary grain used in livestock feed, so as the price of corn goes up, so do items such as milk, beef, chicken, eggs, etc.

Other problems with corn ethanol, is that the amount of energy required to create 1 "unit" of ethanol energy, is greater than the energy required.

Sugar ethanol (primarily produced by Brazil) is much more energy efficient than corn ethanol, yet due mostly to tariffs and import regulations, the U.S. doesn't produce it, and instead hands out government subsidies to U.S. farmers who grow corn for ethanol.

Sorry if this belongs in politics, people's misconceptions about economics and energy is a pet peeve of mine.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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And this is what must change. Because if it doesn't, bad bad bad things will eventually happen. Maybe not in 20 or even 50 years. But eventually.

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It must be easy to be a scientist that has to prove nothing empirically. You can continually move the goal posts of when impending doom is coming, and never be wrong!

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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Change should be adopted because people have an economic incentive to do so. (i.e. they are paying more for oil than other energy sources), not because the government forces action.

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Strictly speaking, no. Change should come because people have a general incentive, not strictly an economic one. There are ways of measuring damage beyond the hole in our wallets.

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If you think people should change because they like that warm fuzzy feeling you should look into game theory.

People's actions speak much, MUCH louder than words.

Edit: I do agree that some people will find some level of utility knowing that they are "saving the earth", but the majority of people do not feel this way, and instead speak with their wallets.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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If you think people should change because they like that warm fuzzy feeling you should look into game theory.

People's actions speak much, MUCH louder than words.

Edit: I do agree that some people will find some level of utility knowing that they are "saving the earth", but the majority of people do not feel this way, and instead speak with their wallets.

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Yes, people almost uniformly suck in this regard. That this is our preference says something quite negative, that's simply my point.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

There is no doubt in my mind that humans will cause the destruction of the earth, (well OK, a meteor could hit tomorrow) but each individual has such a small contribution to that happening, that it is nearly (probably entirely) impossible to provide an incentive great enough for the 6 billion inhabitants of the earth to change their ways.

Sure we could go back to the stone age, and burn no fossil fuels, but not many people are willing to give up their lifestyle that goes along with the dependence on fossil fuels.

Humans are self-interested, and very myopic, and also quite hypocritical.

I fail to see any way to solve the problem when someone like John Travolta, a proponent of "ending global warming" has five private jets that burn a tremendous amount of fossil fuels, and have a large carbon footprint. If he is really so serious about ending the problem, he wouldn't be telling others what to do, and would instead lead with his actions. Source

Al Gore has no support of mine for the same reasons. His private estate, uses enough electricity to power 20 "average" homes. Source

The whole global warming debate to me seems like a huge case of "do as I say, not as I do".

It really is too bad humanity is so intent on destroying itself, but I don't really see any good solutions to the problem. The only possible solution I see is economic solutions that will develop over time. But those take time to develop and prosper, and they don't exactly carry the same touchy-feely weight that "GO GREEN!" does.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

The Rocky Mountain Institute seems to put out some good stuff on this issue. I like that they emphasize making these changes profitable and (for the most part) voluntary as opposed to the same old, top-down Soviet-style we hear from other global-warming groups. Check out this video on super efficient building designs. It's a bit self-congratulatory imo, but the stuff they're doing to save money in various ways is pretty interesting.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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And the thing that pisses me off the most is paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, while Exxon/Mobile post record profits each month.

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How dare they.

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And the thing that pisses me off the most is paying $3.50 a gallon for gas, while Exxon/Mobile post record profits each month.

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How dare they.

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What pisses me off if you think cheap gasoline is a right, when you pay more for bottled water that hasn't been pumped out of tiny pores in concrete density rock 2 miles underground. Come to think of it, Apple has much higher profit margins than Exxon/Mobil and no one thinks they are getting ripped off.

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Well there is a reason why I don't buy Apple products. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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The problem with wind and solar energy is it's just not reliable. This is why most jurisdictions have a cap for how much power can be produced from wind and solar power. Also a great majority of power plants run on coal or natural gas not oil.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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The problem with wind and solar energy is it's just not reliable. This is why most jurisdictions have a cap for how much power can be produced from wind and solar power. Also a great majority of power plants run on coal or natural gas not oil.

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Solar PV is EXTREMELY reliable. EXTREMELY. The first modern PV cell manufactured at Bell labs in 1954 still works. New modules are warrantied for 25 years and will work for much longer. They require little or no maintenance.

The reliability issue with solar is muddled with solar hot water heaters which are reliable if they are will made and installed, but many of those systems have been of very poor quality.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

step 1: kick all the cubans out of cuba, confiscate island

step 2: build enough nuclear power plants to power everything except cars, planes, etc

step 3: dump nuclear waste on cuba, buried underground, etc

problem solved

get ready cuba.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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Solar PV is EXTREMELY reliable. EXTREMELY. The first modern PV cell manufactured at Bell labs in 1954 still works. New modules are warrantied for 25 years and will work for much longer. They require little or no maintenance.

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I did not mean mechanically reliable. I mean that the sun doesn't shine 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

My view is going to be slanted since both my parents work for oil and gas and I will be soon as well, but it will be a hell of a long time before we eliminate fossil fuels from usage in out daily lives and we will most likely be using petroleum byproducts for many, many decades. A challenge for the board; Plan a day of activities that does not use oil and gas or any of their byproducts. Gogogogo.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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Plan a day of activities that does not use oil and gas or any of their byproducts. Gogogogo.

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get totally naked and eat a bunch of peyote and run fking wild in the desert, ship it

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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just watched something on the history channel where scientists projected that we will see huge effects in about 100 yrs. if the current trend keeps on going, Im pretty sure that was without even considering population explosion and large countries like China becoming more industrially dominant (ie. using a lot more fossils fuels(

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I feel pretty confident in stating that the scientists most certainly factored in population growth and increasing fuel demands in their projections. You think they just sat down on a Saturday afternoon over a few beers and divided the current fuel usage by the estimated remaining fuel to arrive at the figures? Hooray! Nobel Prize here we come!!

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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just watched something on the history channel where scientists projected that we will see huge effects in about 100 yrs. if the current trend keeps on going, Im pretty sure that was without even considering population explosion and large countries like China becoming more industrially dominant (ie. using a lot more fossils fuels(

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I feel pretty confident in stating that the scientists most certainly factored in population growth and increasing fuel demands in their projections. You think they just sat down on a Saturday afternoon over a few beers and divided the current fuel usage by the estimated remaining fuel to arrive at the figures? Hooray! Nobel Prize here we come!!

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lol i'm gonna agree with you here as well

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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Plan a day of activities that does not use oil and gas or any of their byproducts. Gogogogo.

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get totally naked and eat a bunch of peyote and run fking wild in the desert, ship it

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Ya this is the only real answer, I had fun trainwrecking a discussion in an Environmental Sciences class with this example

Re: Renewable Energy
 

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Why do we need to save energy?

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Valid point. We don't.
Population control is the answer.
But that would be bad for the economy and the religious nuts would get in a tizzy.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

in a class i'm taking this quarter, the professor went through the calculations to show that ALL of america's transportation system (cars/trucks/motorcycles/semi's/planes/etc) could be powered by 120,000 windmills.

the problem is that these windmills would have blade diameters of 90 meters, and so the amount of land necessary to build these 120,000 windmills was something like 1/4 of nevada. but the professor was saying that there is a lot of off-shore sites that are viable (have high average wind velocities, etc) that could certainly hold a large number of windmills (on the scale of tens of thousands).

i don't know how accurate his calculations were, but it made sense at the time. an interesting thought, for sure. it would just take a lot of start up capital and a lot of land and/or offshore sites to make this happen. but geez, imagine powering all of america's vehicles through 100,000 windmills. crazy.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

I watched the same History Channel episode last night. I share the OP's views, for the most part and I take small measures to reduce my energy consumption.

There's one scene in the show that really gets me rolling, though. It's when they're talking about a 20 foot sea level rise (or however high) and how it would submerge big parts of big cities. They have CG video of a twenty foot tidal wave washing over the city - as though the sea level would instantaneously rise 20 feet instead of a tenth of an inch per year. I'm pretty sure that the actual rate of rise will give even the ants ample time to head for higher ground.

A more likely scenario is that levees will be built around the cities to hold the water back. This is not ideal (see New Orleans) but has been shown historically to work (see Holland).

I'd also like to say that I agree that it will be difficult to convince most people non-economically to take measures to combat energy consumption. What we really need is for our elected officials to just take a stand against popular opinion (which is unlikely to happen) and mandate changes. Not to further politicize this - and I haven't worked out the numbers at all - but I would guess that we could save even some of the money we spend on our Middle East affairs and use it to build those solar and wind farms, then our economic interest in the Middle East becomes similar to our economic interest in Africa. Further, with us out of their hair, Middle Eastern countries may be less likely to want to hurt us. AND, with us NOT buying their oil, they would have less resources to mount a threat against us should they want to.

So basically, I haven't thought it through farther that what I've just written, but perhaps energy independence by renewable means could solve more of America's problems than just global warming.

Re: Renewable Energy
 

^^Im pretty sure middle eastern countries have more concerns with the US than just the pruchase of oil. LOL at the theory of introducing renewable sources of energy will combat terrorism