Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

We talk and read a lot about freedom and liberty, often with an unstated assumption that the meaning of these terms is universal and self-evident.

I've always thought that a free country meant that you could pretty much do whatever you wanted as long as you weren't hurting anyone else.

However, I've recently come across a couple of quotes which struck me both by their similarity, and also with a realization that conservatives, especially religious conservatives, sometimes use the word "freedom" in a special sense, one that is strongly tied to their own subjective morality and notion of "virtue".

First up, Rick Santorum (from a review of his book a couple of years ago):

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In Santorum's view, freedom is not the same as liberty. Or, to put it differently, there are two kinds of freedom. One is "no-fault freedom," individual autonomy uncoupled from any larger purpose: "freedom to choose, irrespective of the choice." This, he says, is "the liberal definition of freedom," and it is the one that has taken over in the culture and been imposed on the country by the courts.

Quite different is "the conservative view of freedom," "the liberty our Founders understood." This is "freedom coupled with the responsibility to something bigger or higher than the self." True liberty is freedom in the service of virtue—not "the freedom to be as selfish as I want to be," or "the freedom to be left alone," but "the freedom to attend to one's duties—duties to God, to family, and to neighbors."

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Then today, I saw the same general idea:

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“The country was founded,” [Tim Minnery, vice president of public policy for Focus on the Family] said, “on a belief that freedom is an inalienable right that comes from the hand of God himself. That freedom is not a freedom to do what you want; that’s anarchy. It is a freedom to do what you ought to do.”

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Personally, my hedonistic notion of freedom is precisely the freedom to be as selfish as I want to be, as well as the freedom to be left alone, obviously within limits.

But it also occurs to me that this notion of freedom in the service of virtue could appeal both to values-conscious religious conservatives (as above) as well as socialist-leaning liberals who are willing to sacrifice personal freedom in order to advance the common collective good.

What's your definition of freedom? Is there anyone who advocates Santorum's "conservative view of freedom"?

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

Rudy G:

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Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

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Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

I don't think it is a particularly "conservative" defintion. Liberals certainly campaign on notions of serving a higher purpose, and whether that is a societal goal vs a spiritual or moral goal is irrelevant. Santorum is right on.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rudy G:

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Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

G. Orwell:

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freedom is slavery

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PS: hahahahah I knew as soon as I saw that Copernicus responded that he'd defend Santorum's nonsense.

natedogg

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rudy G:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

G. Orwell:

[ QUOTE ]
freedom is slavery

[/ QUOTE ]


PS: hahahahah I knew as soon as I saw that Copernicus responded that he'd defend Santorum's nonsense.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

wow and I was wrong that you didnt fall back on one of your ludicrous social security rants.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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I don't think it is a particularly "conservative" defintion. Liberals certainly campaign on notions of serving a higher purpose, and whether that is a societal goal vs a spiritual or moral goal is irrelevant. Santorum is right on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who exactly decides what the spiritual or moral goal is? Maybe I think my spiritual goal is to smoke pot until I lose control of my bowels. Is that any more ridiculous than worshiping a figment of my imagination?

What if my goal is to not have a goal? To live in the moment? To be very zen?

If I am free to pursue whatever I consider to be my goal, then that is freedom. If someone else decides, I am, by definition, not free.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it is a particularly "conservative" defintion. Liberals certainly campaign on notions of serving a higher purpose, and whether that is a societal goal vs a spiritual or moral goal is irrelevant. Santorum is right on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who exactly decides what the spiritual or moral goal is? Maybe I think my spiritual goal is to smoke pot until I lose control of my bowels. Is that any more ridiculous than worshiping a figment of my imagination?

What if my goal is to not have a goal? To live in the moment? To be very zen?

If I am free to pursue whatever I consider to be my goal, then that is freedom. If someone else decides, I am, by definition, not free.

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Then no one in the history of human civilization has been, or ever will be, free.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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Rudy G:

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Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Makes you wonder if he's ever read Orwell before. Was he taking notes?

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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Then no one in the history of human civilization has been, or ever will be, free.

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Yup, that might well be true.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

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owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory monthly Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory monthly Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Monthly?? link em

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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anyone > copernicus imo, lol

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fypqft

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory biannual Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP?

I remember one other distinct one somewhat recently and am pretty sure there are others. For the "he would be ashamed comment", I am reminded of the Robin Williams "A clue, sherlock" line if anyone else has seen that dvd of him.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory biannual Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP?

I remember one other distinct one somewhat recently and am pretty sure there are others. For the "he would be ashamed comment", I am reminded of the Robin Williams "A clue, sherlock" line if anyone else has seen that dvd of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, so one in the last month (maybe, and probably not in politics), and no others = monthly.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory biannual Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP?

I remember one other distinct one somewhat recently and am pretty sure there are others. For the "he would be ashamed comment", I am reminded of the Robin Williams "A clue, sherlock" line if anyone else has seen that dvd of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, so one in the last month (maybe, and probably not in politics), and no others = monthly.

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] Copernicus being a huge nit to someone who is drunk

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory biannual Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP?

I remember one other distinct one somewhat recently and am pretty sure there are others. For the "he would be ashamed comment", I am reminded of the Robin Williams "A clue, sherlock" line if anyone else has seen that dvd of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, so one in the last month (maybe, and probably not in politics), and no others = monthly.

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] Copernicus being a huge nit to someone who is drunk

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] A drunk retreating to a feeble excuse when he can't suport his weak attempt at pleasing the board sycophants

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I am free to pursue whatever I consider to be my goal, then that is freedom. If someone else decides, I am, by definition, not free.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is very well put. Obviously this means there's no perfect freedom, but that's ok. Some goals are more acceptable than others.

Consider:
Person A: His goal is to kidnap young girls and rape them
Person B: His goal is to have gay sex with a different partner every night

I have no problem imposing my morality on Person A and restricting his liberty to pursue his goals.

Santorum, in addition, has no problem imposing his morality on Person B, by exactly the same rationale (in his mind).

Is there a fundamental difference in our attitudes? Or is it just a matter of degree? I'm not sure, but I hope it's the former, since I consider myself to be reasonable, and Santorum to be a judgmental, moralistic douche.

We've all got a set of behaviors/goals that we consider to be not just unappealing but flat-out unacceptable. I think Santorum's set is very large, and my set is very small and just right. But certainly somebody somewhere might think my set is very large and would call me a judgmental douche.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I am free to pursue whatever I consider to be my goal, then that is freedom. If someone else decides, I am, by definition, not free.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is very well put. Obviously this means there's no perfect freedom, but that's ok. Some goals are more acceptable than others.

Consider:
Person A: His goal is to kidnap young girls and rape them
Person B: His goal is to have gay sex with a different partner every night

I have no problem imposing my morality on Person A and restricting his liberty to pursue his goals.

Santorum, in addition, has no problem imposing his morality on Person B, by exactly the same rationale (in his mind).

Is there a fundamental difference in our attitudes? Or is it just a matter of degree? I'm not sure, but I hope it's the former, since I consider myself to be reasonable, and Santorum to be a judgmental, moralistic douche.

We've all got a set of behaviors/goals that we consider to be not just unappealing but flat-out unacceptable. I think Santorum's set is very large, and my set is very small and just right. But certainly somebody somewhere might think my set is very large and would call me a judgmental douche.

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I think you are overestimating the difference between your set and Santorum's, because you happen to disagree with his politics.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory biannual Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP?

I remember one other distinct one somewhat recently and am pretty sure there are others. For the "he would be ashamed comment", I am reminded of the Robin Williams "A clue, sherlock" line if anyone else has seen that dvd of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, so one in the last month (maybe, and probably not in politics), and no others = monthly.

[/ QUOTE ]

He already backed off of the statement. Stop being... well, you... nevermind.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory biannual Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP?

I remember one other distinct one somewhat recently and am pretty sure there are others. For the "he would be ashamed comment", I am reminded of the Robin Williams "A clue, sherlock" line if anyone else has seen that dvd of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, so one in the last month (maybe, and probably not in politics), and no others = monthly.

[/ QUOTE ]

He already backed off of the statement. Stop being... well, you... nevermind.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have different definitions of "backing off" and you...well...nevermind.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

There is obviously a fundamental difference between your view and Santorum's view. He's wants to make everybody do what he wants them to do, so he "acts" on the idea that he doesn't think what they are doing is good or right. You want to let everybody do what they want to do, so you "act" on the assumption that the little girls don't want to be kidnapped and raped.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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Conservative Definition of Freedom

[/ QUOTE ] = oxymoron

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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I don't think it is a particularly "conservative" defintion. Liberals certainly campaign on notions of serving a higher purpose, and whether that is a societal goal vs a spiritual or moral goal is irrelevant. Santorum is right on.

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Meh. Both liberals and conservatives define freedom within the confines of their preferred societal framework. Neither one believes in the most important freedom of all, the freedom to keep every penny you earn.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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Who exactly decides what the spiritual or moral goal is?

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You didn't really say anything about morality. I don't think you were referring to morals when you wrote:

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If I am free to pursue whatever I consider to be my goal, then that is freedom. If someone else decides, I am, by definition, not free.

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That's a ridiculous statement regarding morality, DUCY?

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is obviously a fundamental difference between your view and Santorum's view. He's wants to make everybody do what he wants them to do, so he "acts" on the idea that he doesn't think what they are doing is good or right. You want to let everybody do what they want to do, so you "act" on the assumption that the little girls don't want to be kidnapped and raped.

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Probably one of the contributing factors to his defeat in 2006.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

ron paul would fix this imo

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

For me freedom is useless without an attempt at equality. I won't hold it to perfection to support it, but it is important to me that the principle is there. Without equality freedom seems to me like nothing more than access to air without access to water.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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natedogg > copernicus imo, lol

[/ QUOTE ]

owsley would be ashamed to have you use his name

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] obligatory biannual Copernicus reference to lysergic acid consumption and/or knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

FMP?

I remember one other distinct one somewhat recently and am pretty sure there are others. For the "he would be ashamed comment", I am reminded of the Robin Williams "A clue, sherlock" line if anyone else has seen that dvd of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see, so one in the last month (maybe, and probably not in politics), and no others = monthly.

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] Copernicus being a huge nit to someone who is drunk

[/ QUOTE ]

[x] A drunk retreating to a feeble excuse when he can't suport his weak attempt at pleasing the board sycophants

[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats, Copernicus, you finally won a debate. On a technicality. Against a drunk guy. Over something nobody even really cares about.

Kudos!

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I am free to pursue whatever I consider to be my goal, then that is freedom. If someone else decides, I am, by definition, not free.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is very well put. Obviously this means there's no perfect freedom, but that's ok. Some goals are more acceptable than others.

Consider:
Person A: His goal is to kidnap young girls and rape them
Person B: His goal is to have gay sex with a different partner every night

I have no problem imposing my morality on Person A and restricting his liberty to pursue his goals.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've almost arrived at a generalizable principle. All you have to do is look at the other end of his actions. Person A is presumably acting upon someone who does not consent. If we assume these girls have a goal to be free from kidnapping and rape, then person A's action would be objectionable not because of some intrinsic property of the action, but because of the lack of voluntary agreement from the other party in the transaction.

Likewise, Person B's actions to achieve his goal may or may not be objectionable - we don't have any information indicating that the partners consent.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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Rudy G:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

G. Orwell:

[ QUOTE ]
freedom is slavery

[/ QUOTE ]


PS: hahahahah I knew as soon as I saw that Copernicus responded that he'd defend Santorum's nonsense.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

wow and I was wrong that you didnt fall back on one of your ludicrous social security rants.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ok. When one doesn't understand how social security works the critiques seem ludicrous.

natedogg

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]

For me freedom is useless without an attempt at equality. I won't hold it to perfection to support it, but it is important to me that the principle is there. Without equality freedom seems to me like nothing more than access to air without access to water.

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Define equality.

natedogg

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Rudy G:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

G. Orwell:

[ QUOTE ]
freedom is slavery

[/ QUOTE ]


PS: hahahahah I knew as soon as I saw that Copernicus responded that he'd defend Santorum's nonsense.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

wow and I was wrong that you didnt fall back on one of your ludicrous social security rants.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ok. When one doesn't understand how social security works the critiques seem ludicrous.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, so why do you bother repeating your same misunderstandings.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rudy G:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

G. Orwell:

[ QUOTE ]
freedom is slavery

[/ QUOTE ]


PS: hahahahah I knew as soon as I saw that Copernicus responded that he'd defend Santorum's nonsense.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

wow and I was wrong that you didnt fall back on one of your ludicrous social security rants.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ok. When one doesn't understand how social security works the critiques seem ludicrous.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to point out, no matter how you feel about Copernicus and his politics, he is well informed on Social Security. He is a qualified actuary, I think it is safe to say that he has a pretty good understanding of how the system works.

To Copernicus
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just want to point out, no matter how you feel about Copernicus and his politics, he is well informed on Social Security. He is a qualified actuary, I think it is safe to say that he has a pretty good understanding of how the system works.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Copernicus,

Would you be willing to "go in the well" on this forum where we ask you questions about SS in a separate thread. Might help to clear up possible misconceptions including mine. I cleared this with iron81 in advance and he's ok with it.

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Rudy G:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

G. Orwell:

[ QUOTE ]
freedom is slavery

[/ QUOTE ]


PS: hahahahah I knew as soon as I saw that Copernicus responded that he'd defend Santorum's nonsense.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

wow and I was wrong that you didnt fall back on one of your ludicrous social security rants.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ok. When one doesn't understand how social security works the critiques seem ludicrous.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to point out, no matter how you feel about Copernicus and his politics, he is well informed on Social Security. He is a qualified actuary, I think it is safe to say that he has a pretty good understanding of how the system works.

[/ QUOTE ]

While he may have skills in actuarial accounting, he labors under several egregious misconceptions about the nature of the social security program and how it works. I've outlined them many times before. Maybe I'll start another thread about it since it seems everytime he posts in a thread where i'm participating he takes a shot at me over our past SS discussions.

natedogg

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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Rudy G:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

G. Orwell:

[ QUOTE ]
freedom is slavery

[/ QUOTE ]


PS: hahahahah I knew as soon as I saw that Copernicus responded that he'd defend Santorum's nonsense.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

wow and I was wrong that you didnt fall back on one of your ludicrous social security rants.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ok. When one doesn't understand how social security works the critiques seem ludicrous.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to point out, no matter how you feel about Copernicus and his politics, he is well informed on Social Security. He is a qualified actuary, I think it is safe to say that he has a pretty good understanding of how the system works.

[/ QUOTE ]

While he may have skills in actuarial accounting, he labors under several egregious misconceptions about the nature of the social security program and how it works. I've outlined them many times before. Maybe I'll start another thread about it since it seems everytime he posts in a thread where i'm participating he takes a shot at me over our past SS discussions.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely interested in seeing this.Be even better if you two could avoid the potshots at each other and stick to SS. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Conservative Definition of Freedom
 

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For me freedom is useless without an attempt at equality. I won't hold it to perfection to support it, but it is important to me that the principle is there. Without equality freedom seems to me like nothing more than access to air without access to water.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh.

Freedom is letting the chips fall as they may.

Re: To Copernicus
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just want to point out, no matter how you feel about Copernicus and his politics, he is well informed on Social Security. He is a qualified actuary, I think it is safe to say that he has a pretty good understanding of how the system works.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Copernicus,

Would you be willing to "go in the well" on this forum where we ask you questions about SS in a separate thread. Might help to clear up possible misconceptions including mine. I cleared this with iron81 in advance and he's ok with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its all been covered before but thats fine with me. If "in the well" is supposed to be more "immediate" than just responding to Qs when I happen to be around, then it would be better next week. Im traveling the rest of this week.