[x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

So, for shizzle dogs.

Villain is running at 20/4/1.5 over 30 hands.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

MP2: $4.60
CO: $24.65
BTN: $25.25
SB: $24.75
BB: $4.30
UTG: $6.70
UTG+1: $51.20
Hero (UTG+2): $28.05
MP1: $42.70

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, 2 folds, CO calls $1.25, BTN calls $1.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds

Flop: ($5.60) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $5</font>, CO calls $5, 2 folds

Turn: ($15.60) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $7.25</font>, Hero ?

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

I'm assuming you checked turn to fold if bet to. While I hate the idea of c/f'ing here, hands that beats us 55/77/88/99/TT/TJ and 2 diamonds make up a good part of his range. What's worse is that we're drawing to 2 outs if villain has 77/88/99. I'd fold and go kick something.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

You have ten outs here to boat up. Villain in his infinite wisdom gives you over 3 to 1 pot odds plus 11.15 left in his stack. You need about 4 to 1 to break even (including rake). So if you hit your boat on the river do you think you can extract another 7.50-8 out of villain? If he's got a flush or a straight you'll likely get the rest of his stack.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

Ehhh...Capt's right. You've got 20% equity vs his range, are getting 3-1 on the turn, and are very likely going to get stacks in if you fill up and can easily get out if you don't.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

I don´t think that it makes a difference in the longterm if you call or fold here. I call, but i am a calling station.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have ten outs here to boat up. Villain in his infinite wisdom gives you over 3 to 1 pot odds plus 11.15 left in his stack. You need about 4 to 1 to break even (including rake). So if you hit your boat on the river do you think you can extract another 7.50-8 out of villain? If he's got a flush or a straight you'll likely get the rest of his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exfrigginactly.

Turn: ($15.60) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $7.25</font>, Hero calls $7.25

River: ($30.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $11.15 and is All-In</font>, Hero ?

So, now the board reads a Ten high str8 and my read of villain at the time was some kind of overpair. What to do? Easy call given that i'm receiving 4 to 1?

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, now the board reads a Ten high str8 and my read of villain at the time was some kind of overpair. What to do? Easy fold given that i'm receiving 1.4 to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

Why do you assume villain cold-called preflop with an overpair? It's very rare (unless you have a read) that villain's doing that with QQ/KK/AA). If they are on an overpair, it's most likely to be JJ thinking you'll call to split the pot. I just can't see that hand betting out on the turn. We didn't fill up on the river and I can't see us calling here and winning...even 20% of the time.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, now the board reads a Ten high str8 and my read of villain at the time was some kind of overpair. What to do? Easy fold given that i'm receiving 1.4 to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

More like 1.85 to 1.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, now the board reads a Ten high str8 and my read of villain at the time was some kind of overpair. What to do? Easy fold given that i'm receiving 1.4 to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

More like 1.85 to 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

er... no. You win his bet exactly never. so 30/2:11 or 15:11 ~ 1.4:1. In fact, it's worse than 1.4:1.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, now the board reads a Ten high str8 and my read of villain at the time was some kind of overpair. What to do? Easy fold given that i'm receiving 1.4 to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

More like 1.85 to 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

er... no. You win his bet exactly never. so 30/2:11 or 15:11 ~ 1.4:1. In fact, it's worse than 1.4:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong, btw.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, now the board reads a Ten high str8 and my read of villain at the time was some kind of overpair. What to do? Easy fold given that i'm receiving 1.4 to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

More like 1.85 to 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

er... no. You win his bet exactly never. so 30/2:11 or 15:11 ~ 1.4:1. In fact, it's worse than 1.4:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong, btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, how are you getting 1.85 to 1? Am I losing my mind? Anyone?

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

Wow! I'm making huge errors in these spots! What's the formula here? I think I see that you're taking 1/2 the pot and dividing that by your call? Wow! I think I've just stumbled upon a major leak!

Can anyone elaborate on this further for me?

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

Bet = X
Pot (before villain bets) = Y

Pot odds to call to a split = Y/2 : X

Their bet goes in the pot, but you can never win that because your bet also goes in the pot (not to mention that both of these bets get raked). You both take your bets back, then take half of the pot. Calling for a three way split is obviously even worse.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

Here's an extreme example with regard to the rake:

Villain has $50
Hero has $50

Hero is dealt 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in BB.
Folded to villain in $.25 small blind, villain limps, hero checks.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain checks, Hero checks.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain checks, Hero checks.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain bets $49.50 (all-in), Hero folds.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

His money is still in the pot, you have to call ~11 to win ~20. I see what you mean by "You can't win his bet" but that has nothing to do with calculating pot odds, because when you look at it that way you are getting %100 back on your call if you split.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
His money is still in the pot, you have to call ~11 to win ~20. I see what you mean by "You can't win his bet" but that has nothing to do with calculating pot odds, because when you look at it that way you are getting %100 back on your call if you split.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought you meant. This is definitely incorrect. There's $30 in the pot. Villain bets $11. The pot is now $41. You call. The pot is now $52. Hopefully you get half. That's $26. $26(your half) - $11(your investment) = $15(your return). You bet $11 to win $15. 1.4:1.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

[ QUOTE ]
His money is still in the pot, you have to call ~11 to win ~20. I see what you mean by "You can't win his bet" but that has nothing to do with calculating pot odds, because when you look at it that way you are getting %100 back on your call if you split.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's 30.10 in the pot. You're risking 11.15 to win 1/2 of the pot (because if he doesn't have a J, it's a chop).
Therefore, you're actually risking 11.15 to win 15.05 (minus rake). It's not 11.15 to win half of 41.25 because he gets 1/2 of your call as well (you counted his money into the pot but not your own -- a mistake because that gets chopped as well).

To make it crystal clear:
Pot is 30.10
He bets 11.15
You call 11.15
It's a chop pot
Total Pot = 52.4
You get 1/2 of the pot = 26.2
Your profit = 26.2 - 11.15 = 15.05
Your total risk = 15.05 : 11.15 = 1.349:1

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

Yeah, I actually wasn't even following what I said because I was calculating as if you always get %100 back on your bet.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

Thanks jmc. I think people make this mistake fairly often in potential chops, FWIW.

Re: [x] Hate this spot. NL25.
 

I called like a donk.

River: ($30.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $11.15 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $11.15

Results: $52.40 Pot ($2.50 Rake)
CO showed J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a straight, Seven to Jack) and WON $49.90 (+$25.25 NET)
Hero mucked 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$24.65 NET)

Won't happen again. Thank you all for your comments.