Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

Hello,
I pushed K5 from sb in a situation where EV was positive on all calling ranges.
These days I'm receiving incredible calls by any kind of players. I can't really understand this one.
BB is a regular, +8% ROI on 16000 games.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t1730)
UTG (t1385)
MP (t7620)
Button (t1345)
Hero (t1420)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1395</font>, BB calls t1195.

Flop: (t2690) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t2690) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2690) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2690

I'm not a maniac, so I really can't understand the call.
He requested time, thinked and did the call with his Jd 7d.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

ChetDiMay?

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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ChetDiMay?

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I don't well know the forum rules.. may I write down names ?

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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ChetDiMay?

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I don't well know the forum rules.. may I write down names ?

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I think it's always allowed to write down screennames.
You just aren't allowed to post a link between a screenname and a 2+2 nick, if villain obv wants to hide his identity.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

yeah his call is pretty horrible. If you are sure he's a winner, it could be tilt, or a misclick, or his buddy playing. I'm fairly sure no longterm winner regularly makes this play.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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I think it's always allowed to write down screennames.
You just aren't allowed to post a link between a screenname and a 2+2 nick, if villain obv wants to hide his identity.

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Ok...
Villain is NutPopper .
Any comment on this call ? May it have any kind of sense ??

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

I'm sure as sharkscope's data are correct.
It was not a misclick, he thinked about it and I commented the hand telling 'you were supposed to be good', he answered back.
I played many and many games vs him (I play 16 to 24 tables and I meet him quite ANY tables), and I was not so surprised of the call because have other nice examples in the past from him.
However, history data tells he win every time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] So his EV is +

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

I'd snapcall this. I know it might be a leak but I'm not going to stop doing it, folding vs an unknown of course.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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yeah his call is pretty horrible. If you are sure he's a winner, it could be tilt, or a misclick, or his buddy playing. I'm fairly sure no longterm winner regularly makes this play.

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It's actually pretty significantly +$EV if he thinks SB is on ATC, as many regulars might be.

Equilibrium's around shove 65% call 32% so J7s misses and K5o is still a shove but it doesn't take much either way to change things significantly. If they play enough that this call will tighten up OPs shoving range, metagame's a potential factor as well.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

FWIW, NutPopper seems to be a winner, but I'm not at all dissapointed when he shows up in my SNG's.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

So.. what should do ? Never push a regular ?
I'm living a semi-tilt period because my winning on allins are really below expectation, but I was able not to impact the game (not a rigged-rigged crying but a serious post-game analysis with a software to analize EV from hand history and effective results)
So it seems I can't deal against 'bad play'... another example:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t1725)
UTG (t2240)
MP (t3545)
Button (t4770)
Hero (t1220)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1220</font>, BB calls t1020.

Flop: (t2440) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t2440) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2440) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2440

It's another winning regular with Q5s on the BB... Of course they were diamonds..
I really should do calls like that to survive ?

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

Spite calling is so much fun.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

He is making the same mistake that I make constantly. Thinking that the regulars actually know what they are doing but most do not push any 2. If you were 100% here then J7S is a good call.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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So.. what should do ? Never push a regular ?

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Shove at least the right amount for when they call perfectly (well, or for the known tendencies of that particular regular if you play with them that much), and move on with life when you get called and lose.

As long as you shove correctly, the times you're losing $EV to a "bad" call aren't that significant. If the opponents are good they'll adjust at some point and if they keep calling too loose after some period of time you'll have to adjust. Metagame chicken, I suppose, but it's not nearly a big enough factor in your overall results to be worth getting too worked up about (and you could always do a little table selection if a particular player is a problem).

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

No the key is to be the guy with the J7s and call when they shove into you because THE WORST HAND WINS EVERY TIME ON STARS LDO

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

the push from sb to bb is correct. the call with j7 is incorrect. next case...

-TheActionKid

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

hes dumb or likes to spite call are the only explanations i can think of

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1220</font>, BB calls t1020.

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The J7s call is perfectly fine if OP is pushing ATC (which itself is "incorrect"). Given the second hand posted by OP (quoted), it's not clear that villain is necessarily wrong in assuming OP is shoving too wide.

Likewise, shoving K5o is wrong if OP thinks villain thinks OP is shoving ATC and calls appropriately.

Not shoving or calling at the equilibrium isn't inherently wrong, it's just exploitable. Conversely straying from equilibrium doesn't necessarily reduce $EV (in fact, it often increases it when your opponents don't play unexploitably).

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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He is making the same mistake that I make constantly. Thinking that the regulars actually know what they are doing but most do not push any 2. If you were 100% here then J7S is a good call.

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While it is +EV to some extent I really don't think that it is a good call. It is 5 handed, he isn't in bad shape compared to the other stacks and he could find a better spot than this guaranteed. J7s is basically never far ahead unless he luckboxes and you happen to have some worse Jx or 7x and he is essentially playing for his stack.

IMO this call is horrible regardless of who is shoving.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

It's +0.6% vs ATC, which isn't nothing. Depending on the dynamics of this particular game, I can see taking the risk. It's also worth noting that big stack is in villain's BB.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

Both calls look thin but fine to me.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1220</font>, BB calls t1020.

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The J7s call is perfectly fine if OP is pushing ATC (which itself is "incorrect"). Given the second hand posted by OP (quoted), it's not clear that villain is necessarily wrong in assuming OP is shoving too wide.

Likewise, shoving K5o is wrong if OP thinks villain thinks OP is shoving ATC and calls appropriately.


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I don't shove any 2 in that position, but i MIX play. I can do that shove about 20-30% of times. People playing me know I'm no iper-aggressive, my attempt to steal overall is 21%, many regulars are at 30-40%... It seems ok with sngowizard post-game analysis.
I play with pokertracker/pokerace and usually know who I'm shoving or calling.
But, if I don't do this kind of mix, I should become a open book and it should not be good...
Doing these considerations I can't understand how good is the call.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

When you get caught pushing 62o you're going to have a note saying pushes ATCs and it will be really hard to change that. Your opponents will call you lighter than they should unless they figure out that you've tightened up.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

big stack on villains blind, short stack to villains left (which means songheje will be shoving wide from his button through the 2 shorter stacks in near future), song should be shoving very wide here, the J7 is soooted. snap call.

Re: Pokerstars $27 9-handed: strange BB call by a regular
 

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He is making the same mistake that I make constantly. Thinking that the regulars actually know what they are doing but most do not push any 2. If you were 100% here then J7S is a good call.

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This is the best answer here. The problem is you're both operating on bad assumptions. He's now got you spooked, so you don't raise any two in this spot when you almost certainly should. He's more concerned with making the bad-ass spite call even though he should know that you're not ATC here, given your significant history together. This is kind of his thing (spite-calling regs), so if you don't like it, you should probably avoid him...it's -EV for both of you at this level.