NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

MP1 was 74/37 (mostly minraises)/1.2 over only 25 hands, so very small sample size but chances are good he is fishy.
SB is 9/6/1.8 over 450 hands, so when he raises out of the SB here I know he has to have some kind of a hand.
PF is pretty weird, I'll admit that right now. My reasoning was: SB is pretty easy to play, if I flop big I have good chances to take his stack. MP1 made his usual minraise, so not too much to be afraid of. I really did not think he would repop PF, but when he did and SB just called, my odds were by far too good to fold here.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $70.30
BB: $92.75
Hero (UTG): $53.75
UTG+1: $34
UTG+2: $49.25
MP1: $86.90
MP2: $42
CO: $43.95
BTN: $69.10

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $1</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $3</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $2.50, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $5</font>, SB calls $2, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($15.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $8</font>, SB calls $8, <font color="red">Hero raises to $48.75 and is All-In</font>

I figured I did not have too much FE here, but maybe a bit for the case SB has only a weak overpair like JJ and is afraid of a set and maybe a higher overpair. MP1 can have a really big range in this spot. So, when both fold, I'm very happy. When both call I'm very happy, too, like my chances. Reasoning ok?
All comments appreciated!

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

How I am looking at this one is that you are shoving solely based on your hand. Did it cross your mind that the sb could be counterfeiting your club outs? I understand you have a ton of odds based on the two cards you are holding, but I dont know how aggro I get here because it is very likely you are drawing to a lower club flush draw so just shoving could be super -ev. I prob make a call here an re-evaluate on the turn. This is prob the only situation I can think of that I would play this a little slow.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

You don't have enough fold equity to make a shove profitable. Especially with a fishy MP1 who is going to call any piece of the flop.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did it cross your mind that the sb could be counterfeiting your club outs? I understand you have a ton of odds based on the two cards you are holding, but I dont know how aggro I get here because it is very likely you are drawing to a lower club flush draw so just shoving could be super -ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

As mentionend I'm pretty positive here that he has a pair here, like 75%sure, perhaps more. So he can only have one of my outs in his hand. I'm putting some stove results in here:

6,293,709 games 5.266 secs 1,195,159 games/sec

Board: 6c 2c 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.625% 46.46% 00.00% 2924192 0.00 { Tc9c }
Hand 1: 57.375% 62.54% 00.00% 3936069 0.00 { AcAd }


6,516,672 games 7.250 secs 898,851 games/sec

Board: 6c 2c 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.307% 41.31% 00.00% 2691818 0.00 { Tc9c }
Hand 1: 51.919% 51.92% 00.00% 3383412 0.00 { AcAd }
Hand 2: 06.774% 06.77% 00.00% 441442 0.00 { KcKd }

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

if thats ur read...then I dont mind the play as much, but I feel like if I was in the situation I wouldnt be so sure that he was only on a pair. A calling range on this board is really wide.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

Ok, AK-clubs and AQ-clubs is only 2 specific combinations for SB, but I wouldn´t completely rule out KQ-clubs if he knows the fishy villain as well.
But if he´s the kind of player his stats suggest he is, why isn´t he raising MP1 with his supposed big pair?

Plus, you can have MP1s stack later if you hit (SB will fold then if he doesn´t have the clubs, because you bet in a way that makes it impossible for him to continue with the lone flush-ace). Clubs don´t kill your action here as much as you suffer from missing fold equity.

By the way, what was the general play at the table? I just wonder is it profitable to limp T9s UTG.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

Not sure about MP1's range here to 4bet pre and then cbet. Is he somewhat fit or fold on the flop? I put him likely on overs too. Here's what i get outa pokerstove.

850,626 games 0.032 secs 26,582,062 games/sec

Board: 6c 2c 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.952% 41.77% 00.18% 355344 1512.00 { Tc9c }
Hand 1: 29.024% 28.26% 00.76% 240387 6498.00 { 88+ }
Hand 2: 29.024% 28.26% 00.76% 240387 6498.00 { 88+ }

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
PF is pretty weird, I'll admit that right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that you are referring to the open limp with T9s and then calling a 3bet from tight SB. Yea you have position on SB but I still dont like it a whole lot. You are getting good odds though if you know that SB will stack off if you hit flop big, but how often is that going to happen here? This 3bet isnt huge and I can see MP1 calling it after us which is the problem. As played, after MP1 4 bets, you have to call remaining 2 dollars though.
As played I like flop because it appears to me that villains are not strong. I think you have enough fold equity/pot equity to make this play.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF is pretty weird, I'll admit that right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope that you are referring to the open limp with T9s and then calling a 3bet from tight SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly to calling the 3bet though I knew I'd get good odds in case MP1 calls behind as he is supposed to do ;-)
I know many of you guys hate open limping, but I seriously think it's not too bad to do it at the right tables in the right spots against rather bad/passive opponents...

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

This makes my head hurt.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

meh I think preflop is the spewy part, postflop is fine. Your hand looks like a set and MP may have overcards and the SB may actually fold KK/QQ here (given his nitty stats, it's not out of the question).

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

It appears that we disagree slightly on the merits of MP1 calling SB's 3bet after you call it. Sure it gives us better immediate pot odds with a speculative hand, but Id prefer to have the effective button in this spot. When MP1 calls behind us we dont have that luxury and to me that is a serious boon postflop with this hand. Just my .02.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

meh, preflop is an art not a science. You have a big pot being generated by miniraises, you have position on the tight player, and you certainly have the beginings of a big pot hand. You certainly want to see flops against a 74/37 especially when their raises are providing you with good odds. SB played PF the worst here. In the end your closing the action getting 6.75 to 1 odds.

I understand your ideas about limping, but I still don't know if I can do this UTG.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

@ toymach: I understand your reasoning for not wanting to have MP1 one in this hand but in that situation I was happy to have him in there. You're a right that I have worse position with him involved here, but the kind of hand I have here is (IMO) pretty easy to play especially when you have either a pretty good read on villain or villain is rather bad and has tendencies to stack off light for example with just TPTK or overpair only. As I knew right from the beginning that I needed a good to great flop to continue this hand, pot odds and the remote possibility to play for stacks (maybe even in a 3way pot) clearly outweighted the bad position I find myself in here.

@CaptVimes: Good to hear that you understand my reasoning and I'd like to add that limping UTG with SCs is not my default play. In fact, my VPIP for UTG is at 11%, so pretty normal IMO but I'm really of the opinion that sometimes the situation is right do that, for example when we have a big stack at a table who is obviously playing bad and far too many hands. SCs are great hands in such spot IMO, though of course I'd prefer playing them IP, too.

@ActionStan: really sorry to make your head hurt but I think that we all do not have to have the same opinion on every single aspect of poker. I know many guys here hate openlimping, especially in such a bad position but I think there are worse things you could do and playing well postflop can often turn marginal hands/spots PF in profitable spots later on.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

It was really the 17 bets/calls/etc that led to the all-in that made my head hurt.

limp/raise/screw it call/re-raise/call/yeah sure call/re-raise/why not call/check/bet/call/call/phone a friend call/i have free minutes call/arrrr in baby

it's just not a line you see every day.

I generally don't open limp with that sort of hand UTG, but that wasn't the thing that was causing the head hurtification.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was really the 17 bets/calls/etc that led to the all-in that made my head hurt.

limp/raise/screw it call/re-raise/call/yeah sure call/re-raise/why not call/check/bet/call/call/phone a friend call/i have free minutes call/arrrr in baby

it's just not a line you see every day.



[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, allright! Yeah, I was fed up with this BS too on the flop which was the real reason for shoving here. No, just kidding, but I completely agree that PF was one of the weirdest lines I saw in quite a while...

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

So now that we've gone through all these machinations what happend?

I've got free minutes call

Made me spew coke.

Re: NL50: FD+Gut shot vs obvious big pairs. Spewy? Too aggressive?
 

What happenend? Well after stoving it I'm completely happy with my decisions, was just too stupid to spike one of my 11 outs...

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $70.30
BB: $92.75
Hero (UTG): $53.75
UTG+1: $34
UTG+2: $49.25
MP1: $86.90
MP2: $42
CO: $43.95
BTN: $69.10

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $1</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $3</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $2.50, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $5</font>, SB calls $2, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($15.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $8</font>, SB calls $8, <font color="red">Hero raises to $48.75 and is All-In</font>, MP1 folds, SB calls $40.75

Turn: ($121) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($121) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $121 Pot ($3 Rake)
SB showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and WON $118 (+$64.25 NET)
Hero showed 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Ten Nine high) and LOST (-$53.75 NET)