Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

I'm usually bored watching poker tourneys live because there are so many hands that are just so boring but then a hand like this happens.

This was yesterday and I was down there with my brother and we went down to the ballroom to watch the final 11 slug out to the TV final table. We pick a spot right in front of an empty table that I suspected they were gong to move to on the redraw when they lost another player and sure enough they did so we had ring side seats.

Freddie Deeb was playing like [censored] as he said so himself. He even left the final table for about 20 minutes and missed a bunch of hands. When he got back he said he was sick from some bad chicken and had to go up to his room and said something else we couldn't hear but the tourney director chuckled "that was a little too much info Freddie".

Anyway, he missed a call when he "knew" the guy was bluffing and was reraised off a lot of hands and then someone said are you running bad all of sudden Freddie and he said no I'm running good, just playing bad.

So the hand. Two limpers 20,000/40,000 and it's up to Freddie and raises to 120,000. I've noticed Deeb likes to keep pots small perflop because he likes postflop play but I thought his raise was just to punish the limpers a little and take control of the hand. Next John Myung who had not move a chip the whole time we were there made it 800,000 to go.

I told my brother, I thought Myung had a moderately good hand, read Deeb the same way I did and was trying to take this pot down now. Folded around to the original limper and a strange thing takes place. The guy goes in the tank for ten minutes and looks really conflicted. This is the same guy that ran the big river bluff on Deeb with 8 high and showed.

I then told my brother that if this guy suddenly after all this moves all-in, he's got AA and that's precisely what he does for 1.8 million total. It now gets folded to Deeb and another strange thing happens, he goes into the tank for ten minutes, talking to crowd, saying nothing like this situation has ever happened to me in a tourney. He also asks Myung if he has the raiser covered and he did by about 200K.

He then asks the girl with the hand held TV camera to come over and film his hand, she's real reluctant to do it and keeps prodding her and the TD is letting it all go which was great theater for all of us watching. She finally comes over and he lets the camera see his hand.

He then takes a little more time and mucks but tells the dealer not to muck them, but to leep them on the side near the muck. The dealer didn't want to do it but eventually gave in and id it. I put Deeb on KK, thought it obvious.

Now another strange thing happens, John Myung goes in the tank for ten minutes. I put him on QQ for all the agony he was going through. Plus he had almost half his stack committed to the pot. He starts a dialogue with the guy and the guy wants him to muck, doesn't want a race he says and he sounds like he means it. Myung then says, so you don't have the best hand and the guy says no, I definitely have the best hand but just want to take it down right now and again sounds like he means it.

It really looks like Myung is going to muck and suddenly he calls and flips up TT. WTF, TT. The guy flips up surprise to me KK and he survives a little race as Myung had an oesd on the turn. And they turn Deeb's hand and he had KK as well.

A real fun hand to watch. Anyone else see it and if you did, please feel free to fill in any gaps or correct anything I might have [censored] up.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

20/40/ 4

limp hijack, fld, limp button, deeb makes it 225k total, BB makes it 810k total, 1st limper shoves for 1.8m total.

fyi

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

durrrr,

Congrats on making the final table. What time slot did you draw for hair and makeup?

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

Assuming your post about Freddie's actions is accurate, IMO he should not have been allowed to carry on the way he did, asking for a camera to film his cards, "I've never had a decision like this before", with two other people left in the hand. It seems he made it beyond obvious that he was folding KK, which could have affected the action behind him.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming your post about Freddie's actions is accurate, IMO he should not have been allowed to carry on the way he did, asking for a camera to film his cards, "I've never had a decision like this before", with two other people left in the hand. It seems he made it beyond obvious that he was folding KK, which could have affected the action behind him.

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I screwed up some of the betting that Durr has corrected but the other stuff is pretty accurate. And I agree that they let him get away with a lot in that hand. I think it was a situation that it was such great theater and the fact that Deeb is a "name" pro that the TD also got caught in the moment and let it go.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming your post about Freddie's actions is accurate, IMO he should not have been allowed to carry on the way he did, asking for a camera to film his cards, "I've never had a decision like this before", with two other people left in the hand. It seems he made it beyond obvious that he was folding KK, which could have affected the action behind him.

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semi-true... but deeb was partly doing it to try and get reads on the guy who shoved imo- which should be allowed. I think its pretty borderline + good tv so i didnt think it was too out of line if @ all.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming your post about Freddie's actions is accurate, IMO he should not have been allowed to carry on the way he did, asking for a camera to film his cards, "I've never had a decision like this before", with two other people left in the hand. It seems he made it beyond obvious that he was folding KK, which could have affected the action behind him.

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semi-true... but deeb was partly doing it to try and get reads on the guy who shoved imo- which should be allowed. I think its pretty borderline + good tv so i didnt think it was too out of line if @ all.

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Whether it should be allowed, it's really universally banned, and especially frowned upon at Foxwoods. I'm not blaming Freddy (who is one of the most fun guys to play with on the circuit in my experience), but the TD should have jumped in and told Freddy to make a decision without talking. GL today sir.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

I agree that this seems pretty inappropriate with another player left to act.
Deeb might as well have been saying, "I can't believe I'm laying this down. I've never layed this hand down pre-flop before" etc etc. Such talk and actions shouldn't be allowed pre-flop with others left to act whether he's a name-pro or it makes for great theatre or whatever.

As Toro indicated, he might as well have directly stated that he had KK, which is also inappropriate of course.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

Myung's oesd was counterfeited. The four kings were dead. He only had live eights.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

didnt read the thread but his fold was horrible.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

i think its bad to fold KK in this situation

i almost never fold KK preflop

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

Notice the limper has pretty much no folding equity and there is a reraise in front of him, so you have to assume he was trapping and probably has AA/KK.

The fold was probably good, because the limper was six times more likely to have AA than KK since Deeb had KK. Given the action, it is unlikely the limper has less than KK.

The reraiser is correct to call with TT, because of the pot odds he is getting. Deeb has put in many fewer chips and does not have the pot odds.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Notice the limper has pretty much no folding equity and there is a reraise in front of him, so you have to assume he was trapping and probably has AA/KK.

The fold was probably good, because the limper was six times more likely to have AA than KK since Deeb had KK. Given the action, it is unlikely the limper has less than KK.

The reraiser is correct to call with TT, because of the pot odds he is getting. Deeb has put in many fewer chips and does not have the pot odds.

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Uhh seriously? I could be wrong but I think Deeb put in about 20-25% of his stack preflop with KK. I believe Myung put in about 40% of his stack effectively, and I strongly believe it would be way better to lay down the TT there than the KK, pot odds or not. To say that he is unlikely to have have AA or KK there then say it's correct to call with TT is pretty absurd IMO. The pot odds aren't good enough if the opponent has only AA/KK...

BTW the first thing that struck me about this hand is how badly Myung played. Folding PF is so obvious.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

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Notice the limper has pretty much no folding equity and there is a reraise in front of him, so you have to assume he was trapping and probably has AA/KK.

The fold was probably good, because the limper was six times more likely to have AA than KK since Deeb had KK. Given the action, it is unlikely the limper has less than KK.

The reraiser is correct to call with TT, because of the pot odds he is getting. Deeb has put in many fewer chips and does not have the pot odds.

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Uhh seriously? I could be wrong but I think Deeb put in about 20-25% of his stack preflop with KK. I believe Myung put in about 40% of his stack effectively, and I strongly believe it would be way better to lay down the TT there than the KK, pot odds or not. To say that he is unlikely to have have AA or KK there then say it's correct to call with TT is pretty absurd IMO. The pot odds aren't good enough if the opponent has only AA/KK...

BTW the first thing that struck me about this hand is how badly Myung played. Folding PF is so obvious.

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Myung is getting almost the pot odds if he knows the limper has AA/KK, and sometimes the limper has AK or something.

Maybe Myung should have folded or flat called initially. The early position limps and small reraise may have looked suspicious, but if the limpers were limping reasonably often and Deeb was playing aggro and making that kind of play without a big pair maybe not.

More reason for Deeb to call if he put in 25% of his stack initially, but again the pot odds are real important here. If the limper usually has aces, it is still a good fold.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

OK but I feel like it needs to be taken into account that Myung can be making a move here with a hand that KK crushes a vast amount of the time. The limper could easily be making a move with QQ/AK in this spot with the amount of chips he has. That possibility combined with the extreme likelihood that Deeb has Myung crushed most of the time makes it nearly unjustifiable to fold KK after putting in 25% of his stack in.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK but I feel like it needs to be taken into account that Myung can be making a move here with a hand that KK crushes a vast amount of the time. The limper could easily be making a move with QQ/AK in this spot with the amount of chips he has. That possibility combined with the extreme likelihood that Deeb has Myung crushed most of the time makes it nearly unjustifiable to fold KK after putting in 25% of his stack in.

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The limper is not making a move. He know Myung is pot committed. Even if he limped AK, he might fold it to this action. This is also live and Deeb may have some tells on the limpreraiser, as well as a read on what he is capable of.

I probably would not make this fold, but there is a reason Deeb thought so long. It is a close decision.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

1 person played this hand well, and he was the biggest fish in the tournament lol

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

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Deeb and Myung are both fish. I'd have mucked this immediately when it got back to me. I wouldn't have been happy about it and i'd have been cussing to anybody who was listening and trying to strangle both other players in the hand...but i'd not even think about it...this hand is getting mucked. no thought required.

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Myung is getting 3-1 on his money, so this is a close decision and I may call with TT on the off chance the limpreraiser has AK or something.

Myung's call and Deeb's fold to the limpreraise are not terrible.

Deeb's 3xBB raise at two limpers is a donk play and tell, but maybe it is OK if Deeb has been making that kind of play before.

It depends somewhat on reads, but I am not crazy about Myung's pot committing reraise with TT after two early position limpers and a raise to 3xBB. There is just too much chance someone has him dominated.

None of Myung's or Deeb's plays in themselves were terrible, but I agree that the whole impression is fishy. I also agree that the limpreraiser played the hand the best.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

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Deeb and Myung are both fish.

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That's a little harsh...especially when referring to Freddy.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

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this hand is getting mucked. no thought required.

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You are folding the second nuts short handed immediately without even considering it? What are you, a robot? To say that you would not even consider putting it in there with KK in this spot is a bit ridiculous.

Re: Freddie Deeb lays down KK preflop in FW WPT
 

If the range is AA/KK, I can't understand how anyone would argue that the TT is closer to a call than the KK. TT is getting a bit worse than 3:1. Deeb seems to have around 900k, so he's getting about 3:1. Vs AA/KK, he's 22.6%, so he almost has it. Obviously if TT is a call for Myung, KK is a call for Deeb. Given that he has 22.6 vs the range, and only needs ~25%, seems like a pretty obvious call if there's even a tiny chance that limper has worse. Even a single combo of AKo, AKs, or QQ- makes this a clear call. It's at worst a slightly bad call, and potentially a substantially profitable call, as such, the correct action seems obvious given that payouts are fairly flat for the next 5 places.

Too many people are obsessed with making "big" folds, when those folds are, at best, marginally good. Obviously this isn't nearly as bad as Hank Azaria folding KK early in the WSOP ME when he was getting correct odds to call even if his opponent could only have AA.