A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

A friend pm'ed me this hand and I thought it would be good to post. I wont say my stance on the hand, its mostly for his benefit. Anyway this is either Cbury 6-12 or 8-16. x-post.

I raise red A K UTG. Get several callers including a very passive old man. He never raised anytime with anything.

Flop: A 8c 10c
I bet, two callers including old man.

Turn: 9c
I check, old man bets. I fold.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

.... I don't get it. I think the turn and river are both b/f against a passive old man. AQ, AJ, Ax lower than 8 are all well within his range.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

I think the point may be that the old man is so passive that the range of hands that he's betting himself on the flush and straight card has hero crushed the vast majority of the time. For hero it would be -EV to even b/f because hero is drawing dead and/or really far behind so often to his range.

That isn't to say that I agree with it. I really don't have an opinion. I would need way more information. Against a typical passive old guy at the CP I would probably b/f and would need a solid read to c/f the turn.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

I am trying to make a point to the hero in this hand and you have both correctly identified the opposing views.

Edit to add-Hero has been at the table for about 2hrs.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

Now I don't get it. What's the point? I feel like I did something wrong.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

If this guy shows you A8 you're getting odds to call the turn.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now I don't get it. What's the point? I feel like I did something wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you identified both viewpoints correctly.

Ill say my view after a few more posts

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

Ok. I've spent a couple of minutes thinking about this. However, and I recognize that it's unlikely you know, it would be helpful to know who this villain was if he's a reg.

I think a lot of players will peel that flop very light, especially passive ones. The board is real drawy and it's the kind of board that you will see a lot of people peel with like the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], KQ with one club, QT, Q9 or Q8 with the Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], that sort of thing. So I think just checking to the callers is probably -EV. They're peeling light often enough that b/f is +EV, especially on that card because opponents will often peel again while you still have an edge.

Given that, we are well ahead of that guys peeling range and should have b/f the turn. I'm not calling passive guys turn raise.

Once villain bets his own hand, though, that significantly tightens up his range. He is not betting any of those peeling hands. I think his range is heavily tilted towards the big stuff, straight, flush, slowplayed set. The only hands I can think of that a very passive player might play that way where I can continue the hand are AK-AJ. They'll cc preflop and then just call straight down with that stuff all the time. Once you show some sort of weakness they may wake up and bet but I think we have to heavily discount this because of the board texture and OP's read.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

If the A on the flop is Ac, I c/f. If not I b/f.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

Raise the turn and see what happens. What would Ed say here, you are getting about 9 to 1 here and folding for 1 bet and did I mention you have TPTK

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

Mich,

I think I get it the thought proces here now, and I think hero is correct to c/f once he checks if the old man is really that passive. Old very passive men don't bet ATc9c8c boards without AT minimum.

The problem is that since he is passive, he also has a lot more hands in his range before you check that he's calling with but not betting.

So there are two segments of the hand: 1. before you check and 2. after you check and he bets where his range is completely different.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

I think we can safely fold to a passive old man beating into this pot, why else would we check?

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

hey mitch l,

the turn is the easiest bet/fold in the world. why risk giving a free card to holdings with single [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s or a straightdraw?

a raise means we're pretty much drawing dead so i'm betting because the board is uberdrawy and folding if it gets popped.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think we can safely fold to a passive old man beating into this pot, why else would we check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's what I said. A check is still wrong though.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

Thanks for your input guys. I am definitely in the bet/fold camp. Though I think it is tempting to fold once a passive bets the turn I would call for 3 reasons.

1. We have only been at the table a couple of hrs. Our read is that we havent seen him raise at all yet. Not sure what this tells us about his propensity to bet the turn when checked to, but I am not just gonna fold tptk to a random, because I havent seen him raise yet.

2. The signal we are sending on the turn can be interpreted by villain 2 ways: a) we are scared of the flush b) We have a pp below the ace. Granted I play in games that are bit more aggressive, I think most villains would feel like their Ace was good once the turn was checked too them.

3. Also, if villain is truly passive we can call the turn and reevaluate the river, (consider a river bet/fold) or at least some of the time see a free showdown by a scared two pair.


All in all, this is an extremely easy bet/fold, but hero in this hand seemed to have some hesitance to accept my advice and I think this was because of the "you had to be there" type of read that one gets when playing live, but my experience is that 2hrs is not enough of a sample to check/fold tptk to a guy who has done nothing but peel the flop.

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

[ QUOTE ]
A friend pm'ed me this hand and I thought it would be good to post. I wont say my stance on the hand, its mostly for his benefit. Anyway this is either Cbury 6-12 or 8-16. x-post.

I raise red A K UTG. Get several callers including a very passive old man. He never raised anytime with anything.

Flop: A 8c 10c
I bet, two callers including old man.

Turn: 9c
I check, old man bets. I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy is passive. Passive, at least to me, doesn't mean he won't bet an ace when checked to. If you had bet the turn and he raised, then I think you could fold. This guy could easily have the Canterbury Standard here (Axo).

Re: A hand that a friend asked me to post
 

Tell your friend he is being results oriented. This time, his opponent did in fact bet and it made him think that his check on the turn was correct. A majority of the time, his opponent will check behind and take a free card, a large number of which could complete his draw.

More money is lost from failing to charge the common drawing and weak made hands than is saved by check folding to the uncommon made flush.