Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t200/t400
(Ante: t50)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t18152
UTG+1: t31005
MP1: t5850
MP2: t21076
MP3: t21240
CO: t9725
Button: t1870
Hero: t4250
BB: t7125

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
7 folds, Hero ???

2.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t250/t500
(Ante: t50)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t2770
Hero: t3750
MP1: t7275
MP2: t25002
MP3: t23955
CO: t6000
Button: t20026
SB: t22090
BB: t9425

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero ???

3.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t250/t500
(Ante: t50)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t3700
UTG+1: t8425
MP1: t24952
MP2: t23905
MP3: t5950
CO: t19976
Button: t21790
SB: t8875
BB: t2720

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero ???

4.
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t250/t500
(Ante: t50)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t24852
UTG+1: t23805
MP1: t5850
MP2: t19876
MP3: t21690
CO: t9725
Button: t4690
Hero: t1480
BB: t8325

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to t1400</font>, 5 folds, Hero ???

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1. usually fold, unless you think that the BB is not calling wide enough then shove but i still dont like it

shoving weak aces from early position is terrible imo, even with ur stack, you are so punished by peoples calling ranges, much rather shove Q 8 utg then A 4 in the 2 hole so hand 2 and 3 should be folds

the last one i think you have no choice but to gamble with K 10 cuz ur infiintely short and u have no fold equity anyways if you wait

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

Fold 1-3, call 4. Ax is bad for shoving from EP, although not for the reasons given by Zugwat. 4 is a call, you need like 32% equity to make it neutral EV. Vs a top 5% range, you're almost spot on. Chances are miniscule you'll get a +EV opportunity anyway, so get it in.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

any reads on UTG+1 for hand 4? I think 1-3 are definite folds, and 4 is just a pokerstove problem, put him on a range and work out your equity from that, and take a little bit off because BB is still to act.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1-2 definite folds. 3 - probably fold, but depends upon the table. If we have a tight table, I might raise 3xBB and see what happens. Folding is my normal play early position with this hand though. Last hand, i'm getting my chips in.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

I'd shove 1 and 3, and get allin on 4

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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I'd shove 1 and 3, and get allin on 4

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Shoving 100% in 1 is correct? No tools here, so I'll have to take your SNG experienced word for it...

On reflection I agree that 3 is an ok shove with stack considerations, it has to be close though.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

Shove 1,3. Fold 2. Call 4.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1. push...ur very short and have a good chance of taking the blinds here, which are big% of ur stack
2. &amp; 3. While both are close, ur just too likely to get called by better hand w/ that many opponents left to act. I'd wait on these
4. push. ur likely crushed but u really can't wait any longer. At least u may be able to go heads up if BB folds. With that few chips, going heads up with a decent hand is about the best u can hope for.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1. A definite push for me.
2-3. My shortstack game has improved since I stopped shoving weak aces from early positions.
4. Re-raise 30 more, he might fold [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You're too short to fold this IMO.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1) shove
2) fold
3) close but looks like a shove after playing w/ sng pt - mainly cause we are going thru blinds after this hand and if it's breakeven(or slightly +) in cEV i'd rather take it to potentially create future more +cEV spots
4) shove

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

shove 1 and 4, probably 3 as well

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

2-4 I'd shove without even thinking about it, 1 is somewhat Villain-dependent, but I'd probably fold. I'm surprised so many people want to fold in hand 2.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

Fold hand 1 against a good player, but against a random player it's almost certainly correct to push, and it's not going to be very close. They have to call way too loose for over half their stack.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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Fold hand 1 against a good player, but against a random player it's almost certainly correct to push, and it's not going to be very close. They have to call way too loose for over half their stack.

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Are you aware of any modeling that has been done that accounts for the fact that everyone else has folded around to the blinds in determining BB's hand range (i.e., if it's been folded around, he's 10% more likely to have a top 15% hand, something like that) and what if any effect that should have in a decision like this?

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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Fold hand 1 against a good player, but against a random player it's almost certainly correct to push, and it's not going to be very close. They have to call way too loose for over half their stack.

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ty, it's funny how no one even mentions this, re: BB's skill level (including myself obv).

According to SNGPT, villain has to call 30% or wider for 84o to be a bad push, i.e. 22+,A2+,K8o+,K4s+,QTo+,Q9s+,JTs. I think most would fold the lower end of that and call like 22+, any ace, KTs+,KJo+,QJs,QJo,JTs or something.

On the flip side villain has to assume you're pushing basically ATC to call very wide, so pushing should be good vs most players if you're unknown to each other yeah? Or do you assume your average player pushes ATC here and call that wide?

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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Fold hand 1 against a good player, but against a random player it's almost certainly correct to push, and it's not going to be very close. They have to call way too loose for over half their stack.

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ty, it's funny how no one even mentions this, re: BB's skill level (including myself obv).

According to SNGPT, villain has to call 30% or wider for 84o to be a bad push, i.e. 22+,A2+,K8o+,K4s+,QTo+,Q9s+,JTs. I think most would fold the lower end of that and call like 22+, any ace, KTs+,KJo+,QJs,QJo,JTs or something.

On the flip side villain has to assume you're pushing basically ATC to call very wide, so pushing should be good vs most players if you're unknown to each other yeah? Or do you assume your average player pushes ATC here and call that wide?

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Surprised, thought they could be a bit looser than that and itd still be a good push.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

IMO,

1)Shove
2)Fold
3)Fold
4) Get it in...gamble

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

Hand 1 depends on BB, usually shove unless he's good. I shove the others basically always.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Fold hand 1 against a good player, but against a random player it's almost certainly correct to push, and it's not going to be very close. They have to call way too loose for over half their stack.

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ty, it's funny how no one even mentions this, re: BB's skill level (including myself obv).

According to SNGPT, villain has to call 30% or wider for 84o to be a bad push, i.e. 22+,A2+,K8o+,K4s+,QTo+,Q9s+,JTs. I think most would fold the lower end of that and call like 22+, any ace, KTs+,KJo+,QJs,QJo,JTs or something.

On the flip side villain has to assume you're pushing basically ATC to call very wide, so pushing should be good vs most players if you're unknown to each other yeah? Or do you assume your average player pushes ATC here and call that wide?

[/ QUOTE ]

Btw I just ran it myself and as I suspected the numbers were off. 84o seems to be a good push against the following range:

33+,A2+,K3o+,K2s+,Q6o+,Q4s+,J8o+,J7s+,T9o,T8s+

I would never expect a random player to make a call with this range. Please in the future try not to trick me into thinking my math instincts are so wrong! Okay maybe because of bunching the BB can be a bit tighter than that and its -EV for us, but not by a ton. It should be completely clear cut push against a random player.


Soulman, my suspicion as to why you got the wrong results was that:

1. you got the antes wrong
2. You didn't set it to CeV
3. You are using some kind of "minimum edge" feature

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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Soulman, my suspicion as to why you got the wrong results was that:

1. you got the antes wrong


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lol, crap...I did think 30% was a bit surprising myself. My SNGPT didn't have antes included of course, since Full Tilt doesn't use antes in SNGs...which I didn't consider.

Well at least you got confirmation that your instinctual push/call math is good [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1 shove unless, for some reason, BB is fully aware that you will push with any 2. To hell with it, even if he is.

2+3 If I do find myself here I'd probably pass both of these. You have just enough to still (barely) make people pass after going through one more set of blinds. I tend to shove super-light in LP with this kind of stack though (see 1) which is why I don't find myself here all that often. If it matters though, 3 is a better (less bad) spot than 2.

4 Gut feel is probably call. Stack is now so low that getting it in behind someone else's raise might be your best bet, especially with antes chipping you down further with every hand. I don't much like the raiser being EP (would insta call an MP raiser) but by this point beggars can't be choosers.

Edit : by the way, in 4 call, do not put the last 80 in. DUCY ?

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Fold hand 1 against a good player, but against a random player it's almost certainly correct to push, and it's not going to be very close. They have to call way too loose for over half their stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you aware of any modeling that has been done that accounts for the fact that everyone else has folded around to the blinds in determining BB's hand range (i.e., if it's been folded around, he's 10% more likely to have a top 15% hand, something like that) and what if any effect that should have in a decision like this?

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I haven't seen any. Most assume the effect is small enough to ignore so if you were to show something like that then people would be interested.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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1. usually fold, unless you think that the BB is not calling wide enough then shove but i still dont like it

shoving weak aces from early position is terrible imo, even with ur stack, you are so punished by peoples calling ranges, much rather shove Q 8 utg then A 4 in the 2 hole so hand 2 and 3 should be folds

the last one i think you have no choice but to gamble with K 10 cuz ur infiintely short and u have no fold equity anyways if you wait

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with all of this. Shoving hand 1 might be +cEV against nitty opponents in the bb but I think this is a fold vs. unknowns especially in a 1k. For a long time I would shove any 2 sb vs. bb with like less than 12 bb's as the bb would fold very frequently. Seems now people have adapted to this imo and are calling much lighter from the bb because they expect to see any 2 from the sb. Hand 2 and 3 are both tempting and might look like shoves to a card dead short stack but are both folds, and hand 4 is a sigh then call.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

1. Easy push, ATC because of your M, but most importantly, one opponent left and you are a huge threat to his stack, which is still somewhat reasonable. If he calls you light, well, so be it.

2. fold.

3. Push, because your stack is dead when BB hits you again, and you are too desperate to be choosy with an A.

4. I guess call, but i see your point.

Barry

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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1 shove unless, for some reason, BB is fully aware that you will push with any 2. To hell with it, even if he is.

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OMG. Plz don't.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

I would shove all these, but I sometimes think I'm too aggressive in these situations.

I hate getting in situation 4 where I have to call off my stack when behind, so try to be use all the power of FE while I have the chance.

Situation 2 is the closest and I might pass depending on my image and table conditions (i.e. will I likely get a few +EV LP shoves in the next orbit). Someone said, they'd prefer Q8o to A4o. Has anyone done maths to back this up? Having an Ace surely counts for something in terms of less combos of AK,AQ,AJ,AA Plus you are ahead of some hands that might call loose. Plus you are no longer crushed by KK,QQ.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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1 shove unless, for some reason, BB is fully aware that you will push with any 2. To hell with it, even if he is.

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OMG. Plz don't.

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You'll have to give me a bit more than that. Tell me what hand you would _really_ call with here, remember you're on the BB with 7000 and it's a 4000 shove. Technically if he "knows" you have any 2 he can call with 94s, 86o etc but who's really going to do it ?

In practice, even if he calls with 60% of his hands (which means 87o, J2s as a minimum) then yes it's marginally -EV, but I might take it on anyway.

Re: Short stack problems FTOPS $1K
 

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Someone said, they'd prefer Q8o to A4o. Has anyone done maths to back this up? Having an Ace surely counts for something in terms of less combos of AK,AQ,AJ,AA Plus you are ahead of some hands that might call loose. Plus you are no longer crushed by KK,QQ.

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I can't find a calling range against which Q8o does better than A4o, and that's not even taking account of the Ace in your hand reducing the number of possible calling hands.