NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

My image is tag 24/20 this session..
Villian is running 21/17 and we 3 bet each a fair amount in other sessions. But this session its the first time, but other players 3 bets me alot and i folded everytime, so i called this time..i know its bad because i was MP, so he wont be 3 bet so light..Is it ok when i am Button?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($124.06)
Button ($104.41)
SB ($99)
BB ($126.86)
UTG ($64.33)
Hero ($146.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $10.

Flop: ($29) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $20</font>, Hero raises to $146.50 (All-In), SB calls $98.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($266) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($266) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $266

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

yes vbad

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

just start 4betting him small

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

Bad time to take a stand. If you're going to do it, I would rather you 4-bet light pre-flop, making it about $35-$40 to go, folding to a shove.

I wouldn't do it on the flop, b/c any c/r with significant fold equity is going to commit you to the pot if he shoves. Also, b/c there's more money in by the time of the flop, it will be less likely that he will fold -- so again, if you're going to run a bluff here, do it preflop where your fold equity is higher.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

yes sometimes i 4 bet,but i wanted to mix mixit up a bit...
So is it just general very bad or is there a chance it could be +EV vs more laggy players?
I read about adjustments to 3 bets, there i found advices to call lighter and bluff a lot of Flops..isnt this a decent Flop/ Situation for that play??
Or is this Hand too weak for that and i cant call vs anybody profitable? Are there Hands which are better to call with?

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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yes sometimes i 4 bet,but i wanted to mix mixit up a bit...
So is it just general very bad or is there a chance it could be +EV vs more laggy players?
I read about adjustments to 3 bets, there i found advices to call lighter and bluff a lot of Flops..isnt this a decent Flop/ Situation for that play??
Or is this Hand too weak for that and i cant call vs anybody profitable? Are there Hands which are better to call with?

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Mixing it up is obviously good, but in order to bluff the flop I would want to be deeper stacked. Here, Villain has 1/3 of his stack in on the flop -- not a good time to bluff him.

Since you're bluffing, it's not about which two cards you have, although I at least like that you have some outs.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

Yes, it's bad. Also, you consider yourself a TAG running at 24/20? I wouldn't view you as that.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

fold pre please. I just don't think A3s plays well in a RR pot

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

If you keep getting 3-bet light, you should probably leave the table. And if you plan on shoving this hand, you should consider shoving it preflop along with all your other Ax's to a 3-bet if you want to take a stand.

I like the comment someone else made about its not what you have, its what the opponent has. Most players won't fold an overpair in this spot. And using combinatorics and the fact you're getting 3-bet light, it's a little more likely your opponent has a pair he's not folding to something like AK. 16 AK, 6 for each pair; do the math.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

hero has plenty of equity and folds out maybe half of villains range. I like.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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hero has plenty of equity and folds out maybe half of villains range. I like.

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lol

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

This is +EV. You have 7 outs + backdoor when called. So you only need around 2.5:1. If he open shoved the flop you'd be getting 2.33:1. So you don't need much FE for this to be +EV. I definitely don't think you're folding out half of villain's range, but even if he only folds unpaired overcards you show a profit.

So, it's fine.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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hero has plenty of equity and folds out maybe half of villains range. I like.

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fold pf, but once you call i agree with this

gutshot + almost always an overcard + bd flush


btw i wouldn't be suprised if this (once you call pf which is obv -ev) would be +ev vs a 3betting range of TT+/AQ+ let alone a wider range with more unpaired cards on this flop

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

bad hand to 4b with

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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bad hand to 4b with

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is it also a bad hand to call a 3bet?

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

btw a general question: there seem to be 3 counters to light 3betters

-4betting small
-calling and shoving over his cbets alot (this is awesome when he cbets too big or too much but not as good when he doesn't always cbet imho)
-4bet shoving Axs (and some other good hands to balance) pf

it seems like the first method puts the pressure on your opponent AND on you (once he 5bet shoves) ... you need to know how light he is 5bet shoving and that's very hard info to get (not alot of showdowns), so YOU are going to make mistakes too (not calling enough of his shoves or calling too light)

whereas the other two methods only put the pressure on your opponent, and the only info you need is 'he 3bets light' and/or 'he cbets too much', and that info is a lot easier to get, thus you will make less mistakes

thoughts?

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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bad hand to 4b with

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This is one of my favorite sort of hands to 4bet small, planning to fold with, because of combinatorics. You having an ace makes it slightly less likely that he has AK/AQ or some other hand he may be inclined to 5-bet shove with. Calling 3-bets with it can also get into some nasty spots when an ace flops.

I definitely agree it's a bad hand to 4-bet/call with.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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bad hand to 4b with

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is it also a bad hand to call a 3bet?

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nah this is fine. would prefer btn/co, but go with your read




i think you might be priced in to call which is why i dont like 4b and would rather call, plus it has some decent value to it. i'd much rather have 86o if i'm 4b

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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bad hand to 4b with

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is it also a bad hand to call a 3bet?

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IMO - it's a bad hand to call a 3bet with primarily if you're folding flops like this. This is a much much more favorable flop than an ace high flop for this hand.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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i think you might be priced in to call which is why i dont like 4b and would rather call, plus it has some decent value to it. i'd much rather have 86o if i'm 4b

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A decent chunk of his 5-bet shoving range is going to be AK/AQ stuff - when 86 actually has more value than hero's hand. I mean against JJ-AA,AK,AQ as his 5-bet range, 86 has 29%, a3 has 30%. Give him a range of QQ-AA,AK,AQ and 86 actually has more equity than a3s.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

i had it at like 4-5% diff.

anyway, 86o has sweet fa value post flop, nice for meta too (calling A3 and shoving)

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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Bad time to take a stand. If you're going to do it, I would rather you 4-bet light pre-flop, making it about $35-$40 to go, folding to a shove.

I wouldn't do it on the flop, b/c any c/r with significant fold equity is going to commit you to the pot if he shoves. Also, b/c there's more money in by the time of the flop, it will be less likely that he will fold -- so again, if you're going to run a bluff here, do it preflop where your fold equity is higher.

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I'm pretty sure we have to call if we 4 bet to 40...in fact, it's pretty close if we 4 bet to 35. (with a tight range of KK+,AKs, AKo, include QQ/AQ and we can't fold.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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A decent chunk of his 5-bet shoving range is going to be AK/AQ stuff - when 86 actually has more value than hero's hand. I mean against JJ-AA,AK,AQ as his 5-bet range, 86 has 29%, a3 has 30%. Give him a range of QQ-AA,AK,AQ and 86 actually has more equity than a3s.

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AQ is much worse than TT. Either you put 88+.AQ+ or JJ+.AK+.

And vs those ranges A3s is like the best hand.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

I do this a bunch but I just don't think this is the right spot for it. You've been getting 3bet a lot and this is the first time you've called; he hasn't been 3betting you much at all; you opened in MP; he's OOP; the board is the dryest possible. I doubt he's bet/folding now.

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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btw i wouldn't be suprised if this (once you call pf) would be +ev vs a 3betting range of TT+/AQ+ let alone a wider range with more unpaired cards on this flop

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vs a range of TT+/AQ+

24 combinations fold (AQ AK only 12 each bc we have an ace)
27 combinations call (TT+)

we have 30.5% equity vs his callrange, rounding down for rake etc, and i don't like decimals [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

EV (villain folds) = 69$
EV (villain calls) = [30*(69$+85$ (our effective shove) + 65 (his call)) - 70*85$]/100 = 6.2$ this means even when called shoving is +ev!

EV (shove)= (24*69$+27*6$)/51= 35$ !!!!

this is ofcourse huge (so huge i rly think my math is off [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] - check? i got it checked on msn and he didn't see any mistakes) but this is also a very good flop for A3s so the preflop call might still be -ev

the thing is, once you call preflop, you really really really have to shove this flop

i'm gonna calculate vs a 3bet range of QQ+/AK now just for fun ^-^

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

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A decent chunk of his 5-bet shoving range is going to be AK/AQ stuff - when 86 actually has more value than hero's hand. I mean against JJ-AA,AK,AQ as his 5-bet range, 86 has 29%, a3 has 30%. Give him a range of QQ-AA,AK,AQ and 86 actually has more equity than a3s.

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AQ is much worse than TT. Either you put 88+.AQ+ or JJ+.AK+.

And vs those ranges A3s is like the best hand.

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I'm just going with what I've experienced as 5-bet ranges. Alot of people are shoving AQ. For the most part, only nutcases or guys with lots of history are shoving pairs less than TT. And even TT is somewhat uncommon.

I think if you have people 5-bet shoving 88 against you then you have built up one hell of a game. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw a general question: there seem to be 3 counters to light 3betters

-4betting small
-calling and shoving over his cbets alot (this is awesome when he cbets too big or too much but not as good when he doesn't always cbet imho)
-4bet shoving Axs (and some other good hands to balance) pf

it seems like the first method puts the pressure on your opponent AND on you (once he 5bet shoves) ... you need to know how light he is 5bet shoving and that's very hard info to get (not alot of showdowns), so YOU are going to make mistakes too (not calling enough of his shoves or calling too light)

whereas the other two methods only put the pressure on your opponent, and the only info you need is 'he 3bets light' and/or 'he cbets too much', and that info is a lot easier to get, thus you will make less mistakes

thoughts?

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how bout varying your raising range so he has no idea if he should be three betting you

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

my math is off, corrected math is coming =)

and thx ikestoys that's a good suggestion but tightening up from the button can't be that good because even when he 3bets light 10% of the time, 90% of the time you still pick up the blinds or play in position vs the loose caller in the other blind or ...

or is that incorrect thinkiing of me?

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

wow i made a conceptual/theoretical mistake in my math post and nobody saw/corrected it :/

in a previous post where barrin shoves 88 both me and barrin made the same mistake and nobody corrected us o_O

vs a range of TT+/AQ+

24 combinations fold (AQ AK only 12 each bc we have an ace)
27 combinations call (TT+)

we have 30.5% equity vs his callrange, rounding down for rake etc, and i don't like decimals [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

EV (villain folds) = 49$
EV (villain calls) = .30*(49+65+85) - 85 = 60-85 = -25

EV (shove) = (24*49 + 27*-25)/51 = 9.8$

so once you decide to call pf you really have to shove here


vs a wider range the EV is higher obv, this still doesn't say anything about the preflop call being good/bad though

Re: NL 100 So i decided to make a stand.. really bad?
 

I do this all the time vs. light 2-bettors. He folds unpaired Aces a lot. You usually have 7 outs when you get called.

But LOL at those who think villain is likely to fold any pair...