$10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

Villain is awful in this hand, very LAG. Should I raise 4th? I didn't as sort of a slowplay due to villan's nature... And because he's lag I wanted to wait to raise 7th in case he paired his 6 or something.

Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1.50, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (9.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___folds

Total pot: (11.75 BB - $235)

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

Against a LAG I think this is perfect, as long as you don't tilt when he rivers you, which he will some times.

Actually I'm not crazy about 3rd. I guess it helps keep the hand heads up but anyone with a 3 card 7 or better is coming along anyway, probably. I've been thinking a lot about 3rd recently. 3rd st margins are practically nonexistent unless you think he's three betting you with paint. On the other hand it gives you odds for what you're going to have to do, which is call down light. If there's a time to inflate the pot, it's when you are at least about even.

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful LAG...I sort of slowplay

[/ QUOTE ]

does not compute

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful LAG...I sort of slowplay

[/ QUOTE ]

does not compute

[/ QUOTE ]

So he'll keep betting at me if he's paired, and if he has a 6 for some reason I don't get charged a million bets because I don't think he has anything.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

Why are you reraising an early position raiser with a 7 showing? I guess you think he is raising light, but by creating a big pot, you just make the LAGs likely play more correct.

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful LAG...I sort of slowplay

[/ QUOTE ]

does not compute

[/ QUOTE ]

So he'll keep betting at me if he's paired, and if he has a 6 for some reason I don't get charged a million bets because I don't think he has anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

on the other hand if he has T8 down as LAGs tend to do, you've just lost out on 38834834 bets

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

you guys confuse the right strategy for "calling station" and "bets his board" with "LAG" a whole lot, and it costs everyone on this board so many pots/bets/whatever.

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

okay one more post...the one street you raised was the one street where he could play perfectly and in fact saw exactly what you had.

this is as opposed to sixth, where, even if you decided to slowplay fourth/fifth, he is drawing live and will never fold.

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

This hand is played really badly. I don't see why everyone else thinks the reraise on 3rd is alright. For one thing, you are making your hand face up. I go to great trouble to disguise my hole cards with my 3rd street play. This can't be good.

Once you build the pot, slow playing can't be good.

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys confuse the right strategy for "calling station" and "bets his board" with "LAG" a whole lot, and it costs everyone on this board so many pots/bets/whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forget which villain this is, but he's probably "bets his board" than truly LAG and he won't go nuts w/ T8 but he will keep betting on the future streets if he catches poorly. The raise on 3rd is necessary, but the cap probably isn't. He would put me on something like 7a2 probably and not dead cards, so it's not giving my hand away.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you guys confuse the right strategy for "calling station" and "bets his board" with "LAG" a whole lot, and it costs everyone on this board so many pots/bets/whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forget which villain this is, but he's probably "bets his board" than truly LAG and he won't go nuts w/ T8 but he will keep betting on the future streets if he catches poorly. The raise on 3rd is necessary, but the cap probably isn't. He would put me on something like 7a2 probably and not dead cards, so it's not giving my hand away.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is the reraise on 3rd necessary? What does it accomplish? Even if you don't give away the exact cards, you give away that you have 2 wheel cards.

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

Well, we might have different definitions of what LAG means. There is stupid LAG, which is going to bet whenever he thinks he might have you bet, or thinks you might fold, or whatever, but who will call or re-raise if you raise. Then there's smarter LAG who thinks the same but who will fold his crap if you raise him on 5th. If you try to out-aggress one of these guys, you pay much more when you're behind or he's drawing live, and you make less when he's got nothing.

In order to extract a lot of bets out of this guy, you need to be both ahead, but he needs to at least think he's drawing live.

What I don't understand is why you're so concerned about "giving away" our hand on 3rd but not on 5th or 6th, when it really matters.

And yes, you get villain to play 7th correctly by folding. After you got him to play 5th and 6th incorrectly, by betting.

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why is the reraise on 3rd necessary? What does it accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

To isolate with the guy who sucks.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you don't give away the exact cards, you give away that you have 2 wheel cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I narrowed my range from a a 76 to a 75? I could still maybe have a 76 because a 6 is out...

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, we might have different definitions of what LAG means. There is stupid LAG, which is going to bet whenever he thinks he might have you bet, or thinks you might fold, or whatever, but who will call or re-raise if you raise. Then there's smarter LAG who thinks the same but who will fold his crap if you raise him on 5th. If you try to out-aggress one of these guys, you pay much more when you're behind or he's drawing live, and you make less when he's got nothing.

In order to extract a lot of bets out of this guy, you need to be both ahead, but he needs to at least think he's drawing live.

What I don't understand is why you're so concerned about "giving away" our hand on 3rd but not on 5th or 6th, when it really matters.

And yes, you get villain to play 7th correctly by folding. After you got him to play 5th and 6th incorrectly, by betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for articulating this much better than I can after not sleeping in AC this weekend.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful in this hand, very LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he is awful, because if I had A32, say, I think I'd play the same way, except I wouldn't cap 3rd and I wouldn't have bet 5th, too many small cards on the board and the chance of another brick is too great. But he has a better draw than you all the way, presuming he didn't pair on 4th, and he knows it, so he wants to get some money in there. On 6th, he bets out wanting to represent a made 6, seems like a reasonable semi-bluff considering the river might make the hand, and you just call because you believe him? I guess? Or you are playing a semi-weak-bluff yourself to check/raise the river?

I get pretty lost in these high stakes hands because I don't get what the plan is. Do you want to check/raise someone representing a made 6 with your 7? Then why not raise him on 6th when he is more likely to call?

I hope this doesn't sound critical, I am just confused and someday hope to play up here, so, I must be missing something. Or a lot. Is your play all based on you thinking he might have a pair on the hole or something?

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (9.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___folds

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful in this hand, very LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he is awful, because if I had A32, say, I think I'd play the same way, except I wouldn't cap 3rd and I wouldn't have bet 5th, too many small cards on the board and the chance of another brick is too great. But he has a better draw than you all the way, presuming he didn't pair on 4th, and he knows it, so he wants to get some money in there. On 6th, he bets out wanting to represent a made 6, seems like a reasonable semi-bluff considering the river might make the hand, and you just call because you believe him? I guess? Or you are playing a semi-weak-bluff yourself to check/raise the river?

I get pretty lost in these high stakes hands because I don't get what the plan is. Do you want to check/raise someone representing a made 6 with your 7? Then why not raise him on 6th when he is more likely to call?

I hope this doesn't sound critical, I am just confused and someday hope to play up here, so, I must be missing something. Or a lot. Is your play all based on you thinking he might have a pair on the hole or something?

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (9.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain is awful because I've played with him before, and he's a bad player. It is very likely he does not have a better draw than me the whole way; although I can't be sure.

I want to wait to raise the river because; on 6th, I can't have better than a 76. I'm a lot less likely to get r/r on the river. Also, if he's bluffing, I get one more bet out of him on the river. By just calling 6th; I lose less when I'm behind and win the same when I'm ahead because he'll bluff the river again and/or call a value raise.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $10/$20 Razz Big pot vs. terrible villain.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is awful in this hand, very LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he is awful, because if I had A32, say, I think I'd play the same way, except I wouldn't cap 3rd and I wouldn't have bet 5th, too many small cards on the board and the chance of another brick is too great. But he has a better draw than you all the way, presuming he didn't pair on 4th, and he knows it, so he wants to get some money in there. On 6th, he bets out wanting to represent a made 6, seems like a reasonable semi-bluff considering the river might make the hand, and you just call because you believe him? I guess? Or you are playing a semi-weak-bluff yourself to check/raise the river?

I get pretty lost in these high stakes hands because I don't get what the plan is. Do you want to check/raise someone representing a made 6 with your 7? Then why not raise him on 6th when he is more likely to call?

I hope this doesn't sound critical, I am just confused and someday hope to play up here, so, I must be missing something. Or a lot. Is your play all based on you thinking he might have a pair on the hole or something?

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___raises___calls

4th Street - (9.50 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.75 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain is awful because I've played with him before, and he's a bad player. It is very likely he does not have a better draw than me the whole way; although I can't be sure.

I want to wait to raise the river because; on 6th, I can't have better than a 76. I'm a lot less likely to get r/r on the river. Also, if he's bluffing, I get one more bet out of him on the river. By just calling 6th; I lose less when I'm behind and win the same when I'm ahead because he'll bluff the river again and/or call a value raise.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]
I see the raise has some point for isolation. However, you are not getting anyone with a 7 low or better to fold. In fact, they almost certainly jam if they can beat the 7 with the raise from the LAG and a reraise from a 7.