soap c/r
 

CP 30/60

background: utg is 2p2er soap and sb is drunken business man who is a complete goon and does not understand the game

utg raises
hero 3-bets 99
folds to sb who 4-bets
utg calls
hero caps

3 of us to the flop... KJ9r... sb bets, utg 2, hero 3, sb call, utg 4, hero 5

turn 2 (no flush draws out)

check to hero who fires, sb calls, utg c/r, hero...?

interested in the 3-bet and cap preflop as well as turn spot...

all comments appreciated

Re: soap c/r
 

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...sb is drunken business man who is a complete goon and does not understand the game...

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that's all i need to know. i give him a lift to 3 town. i don't ever slow down here against these types. ever.

Re: soap c/r
 

uuu, there is another player in this hand. I mean, i guess there are 4 hands soap can have. Ak, AA, KK, or JJ. You 5 bet the flop and he still c/r both of you, that strongly discounts AK. I am not good enough to fold this, but I sure as heck don't 3-bet.

Re: soap c/r
 

you 5-bet preflop and 5-bet the flop and he doesn't care. if you're thinking about 3-betting here either you have a fantastically laggy image or villain has no idea what he's doing

Re: soap c/r
 

a few qualifiers, i am quite laggy compared to most live players

also, i think soap caps JJ and KK every time in this spot... i think QTs, KJs and a very discounted JJ make up his range...

my rationale behind 3-betting the turn was that the sb almost always has 4 outs to his gut shot and in this large of a pot i want to do everything i can to protect my hand (if i am ahead)...

i hope that helps give the conversation some direction

Re: soap c/r
 

he has JJ, dont three bet

Re: soap c/r
 

your play preflop is very meh too

Re: soap c/r
 

I don't like the flop 5-bet, I probably would have called the 4 and then raised most turns.

You're not sure if you're ahead or behind on the flop, but raising the turn gives you the best shot at protecting your hand against SB and to represent something that only the near-nuts is going to 3-town.

Re: soap c/r
 

turn action is wrong:
i CR'd the flop, shipit 3-bet, sb called, i 4 bet, shipit caps.

imo, capping pf is terrible. sb is is retarded, but even retards get 99+ every now and then. you're at best 50/50 vs my range.

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
turn action is wrong:
i CR'd the flop, shipit 3-bet, sb called, i 4 bet, shipit caps.

imo, capping pf is terrible. sb is is retarded, but even retards get 99+ every now and then. you're at best 50/50 vs my range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same. Unless this guy is super spazzy I am hating 99 in this spot. I was thinking that you wouldnt even cap JJ here.

Re: soap c/r
 

The question should be fold or call, not call or 3bet. How much of his range is KJ and QT? You have outs vs. QT. I can certainly fold this turn, but probably end up calling down. The idea that you want to 3bet here to "protect your hand from SB's gutshot" is laughable.

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
a few qualifiers, i am quite laggy compared to most live players

also, i think soap caps JJ and KK every time in this spot... i think QTs, KJs and a very discounted JJ make up his range...

my rationale behind 3-betting the turn was that the sb almost always has 4 outs to his gut shot and in this large of a pot i want to do everything i can to protect my hand (if i am ahead)...

i hope that helps give the conversation some direction

[/ QUOTE ]

soap has you beat here the vast majority of the time. the only way he doesn't is if you are indeed a complete lagtardspewmonkey and he knows it, and thus he feels you could be dumb enough to have AK or AA here.

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a few qualifiers, i am quite laggy compared to most live players

also, i think soap caps JJ and KK every time in this spot... i think QTs, KJs and a very discounted JJ make up his range...

my rationale behind 3-betting the turn was that the sb almost always has 4 outs to his gut shot and in this large of a pot i want to do everything i can to protect my hand (if i am ahead)...

i hope that helps give the conversation some direction

[/ QUOTE ]

soap has you beat here the vast majority of the time. the only way he doesn't is if you are indeed a complete lagtardspewmonkey and he knows it, and thus he feels you could be dumb enough to have AK or AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually considered this to be a possibility, but I think what is much more probable is that Soap is reacting to the sb. Crappy drunk businessmen are the kind of players that go ape on the flop w/ Ak ui or something else retarded postflop. They are not generally the types to cold 4-bet w/ trash out of the sb.

Re: soap c/r
 

assuming soap isnt on monkey tilt,
he has you beat 98% of the time
he has q10s about 80%, jj about 18%
call turn and call river/ raise if improved

i also hate your cap of 99...

Re: soap c/r
 

soap raises QTs utg?


i think his range is more JJ then QTs

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
a few qualifiers, i am quite laggy compared to most live players

also, i think soap caps JJ and KK every time in this spot... i think QTs, KJs and a very discounted JJ make up his range...

my rationale behind 3-betting the turn was that the sb almost always has 4 outs to his gut shot and in this large of a pot i want to do everything i can to protect my hand (if i am ahead)...

i hope that helps give the conversation some direction

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude--

That's not "direction." That's reducing the thread to arithmetic any experienced player should be able to do in about ten seconds.

If all I know is that soap is a good player, then I definitely don't cap preflop. By the time we get to the ellipsis in the OP you should be in crying-call mode despite the overlay from the SB. Three-betting is bonkers unless there's bizarre image stuff you didn't tell us about.

--Nate

Re: soap c/r
 

under good came conditions soap's range will open up a bit
from op's description this game sounds pretty tasty

so yes i change my percentages to 90% q10s for soap

Re: soap c/r
 

seems way off five

how is this not JJ... you discount that because you think he would cap it pflop...

you raise utg, get three bet next in, cold 4 bet in the sb drunk or not... are you capping or calling with JJ

from the action thus far i still think his range is weighted heavily toward JJ, and putting in more bets at any point in the hand seems foolish unless a nine or jack peels off.

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
seems way off five

how is this not JJ... you discount that because you think he would cap it pflop...

you raise utg, get three bet next in, cold 4 bet in the sb drunk or not... are you capping or calling with JJ

from the action thus far i still think his range is weighted heavily toward JJ, and putting in more bets at any point in the hand seems foolish unless a nine or jack peels off.

[/ QUOTE ]

a jack changes nothing.

Re: soap c/r
 

a jack would make it much less likely he has JJ and it would then change the weighting of his hand ranges

Re: soap c/r
 

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a jack would make it much less likely he has JJ and it would then change the weighting of his hand ranges

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it doesn't change the fact that we cannot raise the river and cannot fold the river, and thus changes nothing.

Re: soap c/r
 

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a jack would make it much less likely he has JJ and it would then change the weighting of his hand ranges

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it doesn't change the fact that we cannot raise the river and cannot fold the river, and thus changes nothing.

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hmm... i guess it really doesnt change that fact because i have completely discounted KJ, just stopped thinking about it entirely.

Re: soap c/r
 

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a jack would make it much less likely he has JJ and it would then change the weighting of his hand ranges

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it doesn't change the fact that we cannot raise the river and cannot fold the river, and thus changes nothing.

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hmm... i guess it really doesnt change that fact because i have completely discounted KJ, just stopped thinking about it entirely.

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there is not a single hand that soap can have here that we beat if 2 bets go in on this river.

Re: soap c/r
 

woah for some reason i thought it was capped at 4 bets pfr didnt see u 5 bet capped.

ditto on what others said, and i call down on turn vs a solid player.

i thought the laggy businessman cr'd the turn... my fault.

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
uuu, there is another player in this hand. I mean, i guess there are 4 hands soap can have. Ak, AA, KK, or JJ. You 5 bet the flop and he still c/r both of you, that strongly discounts AK. I am not good enough to fold this, but I sure as heck don't 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

Sure smells like JJ UTG to me. I call down and cry that I lost the drunk's dead money to a better hand.

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...sb is drunken business man who is a complete goon and does not understand the game...

[/ QUOTE ]

that's all i need to know. i give him a lift to 3 town. i don't ever slow down here against these types. ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG is a 2+2er who opened, called 2 more back to him PF, 5 bets on the flop, and is now check raising the turn vs. 2 opponents. And you 3 bet?

Re: soap c/r
 

i was not trying to imply i liked the way i played this hand, but it was out of the ordinary and needed critique

i realize i am 50-50 w/ soaps range preflop, but wanted to make the hand play out easier post flop with him stuck in the middle

flop i agree that i should have called the 4 and raised the turn to get sb out of there more easily

turn i also agree was wrong, i thought i was ahead of more hands at the time, but aftermath i would not 'protect' my hand being that i am not winning in this spot

river i paid off ui after he 4-bet...

awful all the way around

Re: soap c/r
 

and he had JJ?

Re: soap c/r
 

QcTc... i wouldn't think JJ 4-bets there anyhow though, would you?

Re: soap c/r
 

What does everyone think of Soaps turn line?

Re: soap c/r
 

Looks pretty darn good to me. I don't like Soap's UTG raise, but the rest looks good. Once Shippy 5-bets the flop, I think he's betting the turn 100% of the time when it blanks off.

Re: soap c/r
 

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What does everyone think of Soaps turn line?

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you mean 4-betting the nuts 3 ways?

if you're talking about the inital c/r, i like it more than betting out. hands like AA/AK likely aren't raising but are betting when checked to. it's also your best chance of getting more than 3 bets in on the turn when you're up against KK/JJ

Re: soap c/r
 

Yeah, I suppose you are right we can only be sure that a raise would get in on the turn if he capped the flop.

Re: soap c/r
 

How do you pay off when he 4bets? Fine, we know he has QT, so you peel the board pair, but call the river bet???

Re: soap c/r
 

raising QTs in 6 max is super debatable... soap used to be the biggest nit ever WTF is going on

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]
What does everyone think of Soaps turn line?

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it depends what SB did. if he folded the turn, then soap should call the turn raise and check/call a board pair and check/raise a brick.

EDIT: actually, I think that may be the line no matter what SB does, as hero clearly (a) has a set or (b) is drawing dead.

Re: soap c/r
 

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How do you pay off when he 4bets? Fine, we know he has QT, so you peel the board pair, but call the river bet???

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because soap does not ever have anything but the nuts here ever ever ever ever, and thus we likely have outs, but we are not crazy about them. but at the same time we cannot fold because we made the pot so astronomically big with our spewtardy play.

i understand what you are getting at, however. basically it is one of those "i made my hand, but i hate it so i better just call" spots. whenever this happens, it is safe to assume that someone played very very bad.

Re: soap c/r
 

i wish ship it pls was playing that QQ against me when i had KK instead of bob, id be like 60 dollars richer now

Re: soap c/r
 

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raising QTs in 6 max is super debatable... soap used to be the biggest nit ever WTF is going on

[/ QUOTE ]
i've opened up alot, probably too much. i opened up becuase good regulars viewed me as a nit. but obviously, unknowns and bad regulars think i'm CRAZIAN.

my swings have increased since i've widen my range [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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it depends what SB did. if he folded the turn, then soap should call the turn raise and check/call a board pair and check/raise a brick.

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sb called.

even if sb folded, i'm never going to just call with the nuts vs ship_it. i can't see a good reason to wait for the river to not pair. he constantly over plays his hands?

if you think me 4-betting will blow ship it out.... imo, ship_it will never fold his set/ 2 pair.

Re: soap c/r
 

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
it depends what SB did. if he folded the turn, then soap should call the turn raise and check/call a board pair and check/raise a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]
sb called.

even if sb folded, i'm never going to just call with the nuts vs ship_it. i can't see a good reason to wait for the river to not pair. he constantly over plays his hands?

if you think me 4-betting will blow ship it out.... imo, ship_it will never fold his set/ 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not let him overplay it on the river when you KNOW your hand is best? You know what he has and that he will never fold it, so make sure a good card comes for you and then let him hang himself on the river when the deck cannot bail him out.