KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

Second orbit at table, and have never played with any1 at this table before.

Note effective stack sizes 120 BB.

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $119.40
UTG: $133.40
MP: $65.05
CO: $96.50
BTN: $130.55
Hero (SB): $121.30

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $3</font>, BTN calls $3, <font color="red">Hero raises to $13</font>, BB calls $12, CO calls $10, BTN calls $10

Flop: ($52) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
Hero ???

What is the best way to get our stack in against the widest range of hands?

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

bets 40 I guess

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

Id check and see what happens.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

bet 38, looks sexier than 40, and obv get all in asap

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Id check and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of situation are you not getting it AI on after checking?

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

im probably betting here. id hate to check have it check behind and have one of the cards on board pair.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

1/2 pot. Gaybet looks like AK, more might scare people away.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet 38, looks sexier than 40, and obv get all in asap

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

Aren't we a bit worried about BB here ?
TT/JJ/QQ can be very well in his range here.
I was thinking about checking and see what happens behind us

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

Yeah, I am betting it here and seeing what the others do.
if you check your more likely to find yourself in a situation where you have no idea where you stand

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't we a bit worried about BB here ?
TT/JJ/QQ can be very well in his range here.
I was thinking about checking and see what happens behind us

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 33% vs. those hands. Pot odds are 40% if you get all in. AK is a much greater concern but I think, given the action, you have to discount that and go broke here. So the only goal is how to get as much money in the pot as possible.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

i bet and call.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

Wow, didn't see the BB cold call. It seems bad to get it in here IMO, but against that range stove says we have 47% equity. I guess just bet/call it.

Board: Jh Qc Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.885% 46.24% 01.65% 129084 4602.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 52.115% 50.47% 01.65% 140892 4602.00 { QQ-TT, AQs+, QJs, JTs, AQo+, QJo, JTo }

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aren't we a bit worried about BB here ?
TT/JJ/QQ can be very well in his range here.
I was thinking about checking and see what happens behind us

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 33% vs. those hands. Pot odds are 40% if you get all in. AK is a much greater concern but I think, given the action, you have to discount that and go broke here. So the only goal is how to get as much money in the pot as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the info pineapple

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

we are 4 handed. 4handed in 3bet pot, give me the probability no vilain has TT+, here.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 24.353% 19.92% 04.44% 4338 966.00 { KhKs }
Hand 1: 75.647% 71.21% 04.44% 15510 966.00 { TT+, AKo }


I srsly c/f this to action.


Obv my reasoning doesnt hold if any villain would put it in with AQ. He would need to be a retard but in that case b/c sure.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

This is probably the worst possible flop you can get given preflop action (well, maybe AQJ would be worse). bet/get it in can't be too horrible, but I actually think that c/f may be better.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

b/c or crai prob b/c. def get it in on the flop. high variance though

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

getting it in here against 3 opponents seems pretty gross. I check and see what happens

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

[ QUOTE ]
getting it in here against 3 opponents seems pretty gross. I check and see what happens

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that you are robust against anything but AK (which actually might be a problem, now that I look at it more) and it's gonna be real tempting for more than one Villain to get some money in. Hence my 1/2 pot bet recommendation. I think four opponents actually helps you here, honestly. But maybe you can't discount AK. All I know is that when a bunch of money goes in multiway, I'm usually shocked at the crap I see.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

Why are we only worried about AK? 89/TT-QQ/QJ/JT etc are all major parts of these guys' ranges, especially the BB (will show up with TT+ a lot). Why do we want to get it in with (essentially) a bare OESD?

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

easy bet call. if you are not already ahead you have outs to improve. AK is the only crusher and you still have a few outs to split against that.

the pot is big, so winning it now is good. $35 is good followed up by a shove obv

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

wtf? Stacking off here seems retarded, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we only worried about AK? 89/TT-QQ/QJ/JT etc are all major parts of these guys' ranges, especially the BB (will show up with TT+ a lot). Why do we want to get it in with (essentially) a bare OESD?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause sometimes we are actually ahead, and there's a bunch of money in the middle already so the pot odds aren't far off (see my post above) even vs. a set and even if no third party gets money in.

It's essentially a coinflip vs. 2 pair.

I mean, it's not a great spot, but it seems too weak to just give up here, when (like I said) there is often a ton of dead money in the pot.

As an example, this is perfectly fine for us:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3895658
pokenum -h kd kc - qs js - ts tc -- qc jd th
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Qc Jd Th
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Kd 305 33.78 582 64.45 16 1.77 0.344
Qs Js 150 16.61 737 81.62 16 1.77 0.172
Ts Tc 432 47.84 455 50.39 16 1.77 0.484

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

good post pineapple, very good points. I guess I can concede on this. I was just feeling like when the money goes in we're going to always be up against 2pair+, but we're usually not up against AK I suppose.

I think the thing that bothers me the most (obv) is that we have 3 opponents and with the action I feel like we're almost always behind on this flop. I know there's a lot of money in the pot but it's still tough for me to accept that I have to bet/call the flop when I usually only have an OESD. But I'll concede that I think your post was right on.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

[ QUOTE ]
good post pineapple, very good points. I guess I can concede on this. I was just feeling like when the money goes in we're going to always be up against 2pair+, but we're usually not up against AK I suppose.

I think the thing that bothers me the most (obv) is that we have 3 opponents and with the action I feel like we're almost always behind on this flop. I know there's a lot of money in the pot but it's still tough for me to accept that I have to bet/call the flop when I usually only have an OESD. But I'll concede that I think your post was right on.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you get called by 2 pair, you also have other outs besides the OESD, you have 2 set outs + 3 board pairing outs + runner runner board pair for a better 2 pair.

against 2 pair you have 14 outs or so
against a set you have 10 outs

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

You guys seem to be forgetting that CO and BTN can have like 44 and 55 and not even be a part of the action.

That said, I like checking to the BB because I think he bets a lot of his range here, and if we can get a CO or BTN call, it puts a bit more money in the pot and we get better odds if we're behind, and then I'd crai.

BTN or CO will fold their weakish hands probably and unless BB has AK, we're in 'okay' shape given the amount of dead money in the pot.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

If there's a bet and a raise after we check we still gettin it in Thac?

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

That'd be a bit different, but I don't think I fold, just because I think if CO or BTN raises, they can still have 2 pair or T9/KQ.

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

fire for 30. this flop looks good but against 3 opponents u could easily be beaten here. good chance of 2pr. but you pretty much have to get it in and best way has to be betting right???

Re: KK floping OP/OESD in multiway pot...
 

Bet $40 and if raised your not folding.